lone sneezing Degu rescued

[degualot]

I rescued a lone Degu from a Petshop near where I live, I visted the pet store around a month ago with his brother, after deciding the living conditions weren't good for him I decided I was going to take them away from them.

I went in a couple of weeks ago to get them and they had already sold his brother, I hate when pet stores do this, the 1 Degu he deffinately had a chance of living together happy with and they sold him, of course they gave me and excuse of overgrooming but that's complete an utter bull Sh*t.

Anyway I brought him(Victor) home and he's alone now, I already have two boys(Taco, Bobby) in their own cage and He now is alone in his own. Now i've had Degus for years so please people no lectures about how they are suppose to be kept in Pairs, I realise that it is important but for now until I figure out how the best way to introduce him to another Degu, he's on his own for the moment. I don't think (Bobby and Taco wil take to Victor, because I once put the cage next to theirs and Taco turned very aggressive and saw victor as a threat and that's just from smelling him and seeing him, they did not touch. It also for some reason made Taco attack Bobby and it upset the whole balance of life in the cage. Last week I forgot to change the dustbath after Victor had been in it, Bobby went in first and when he came out Taco attacked him and they both engaged in a silent but violent fight not like the usual squabble. I take it Taco cought the scent of victor on bobby from the sandbath. He then cut bobbys lip and I had to seperate them. After a few hours they returned back to normal and are cuddling like nothing happened.

These incidents have made me realise there's no point in even trying to introduce the Two boys to Vicor as they go crazy at even a smell of him then attack each other.

So I'm left with the option of finding a new Degu, My problem is if I find another Degu to be with Victor what happens if they don't work out because I do not have the space for a permament third cage, then there's the question do I try with a young male, how young, or do I go with a female and get him castrated. He's 10 month old so I have to wait another couple of month for that option. so any help or advice of this aspect would be appreciated.

Ok big breath now onto the Health of Victor, Vicor is lively and very friendly and cheerful, He has a bright spark in his eye, you can tell he is comfortable and pretty happy, however there are things about him that worry me.

He has not been taken care of by the Pet store and the people that sold him to them. I can just tell. He already had his tail off, god knows how that happened, ok that could have been anything not necessairly anubodys fault. but when I got him the pet store kept him in a tank with no levels, a bowl full of chinchilla food to the top, must be 400g in that bowl so unlimited feeding of hard feed hence he is a little overweight, he weighs 290g. His wheel was only a tiny hamster wheel which I saw was way to small, and guess what he was never given Hay, I really got upset over that which everybody knows is the Degu staple and vital to their health.

because of the above, he has poor balance, he can't climb proprely but he's getting better, he can't climb properly because He never had ledges before and the tale affects hus balance but like I say, he's improving a lot.

Also I can't fix this part but it's very serious, he refuses to eat hay because he's never been fed it, I've tried 4 different types of timophy hay, 3 different brands of Medow hay and he never touches a single bit ever. I could leave it in all week and it wouldn't be touched. there's just no way to get him to eat his hay. So he lives on a few veggies and hard feed. but he just won't eat hay no matter what.

which leeds me onto the next subject, His Teeth, they are a little out of alignment on the bottom set which he isn't drowling or anything but I'm going to get them checked out my a Degu vet. They are slightly bif which I assume is donw to not eating hay or having many chew toys, he has both in abundance now. He does chew toys but no hay eating.

Last but not least, He sneezes a lot, took him to the vet, his lungs are clear, they gave me antibiotics for hims just incase. so I gave it to him over a period of 4 days. Secondly I have changed his bedding with 3 different varieties and he still sneezes, I tried finacard, Megazorb and regular kiln dried pine wood shavings, all over the course of 3 weeks and he still sneezes quite a lot during the day, he sneezes even when I out him on clean bed sheets. So i'm not sure what the vet can do for him.

anyway any thoughts or suggestions would be much appreciated. Thank you and i'm sorry for the article I wrote.

shaun

[Ady]

Hi,
sorry can't help with the health part, but if u live around London I got one baby boy (6 weeks old). I'm looking for new home for him, if u interested.

[philbailey1806]

Ok, to start with, I agree with what Smux has said, but still have a little bit of input.

Firstly, to me, it doesn't sound like it is going to be easy (if at all possible) to introduce victor to your two boys if they are already having such a severe reaction to his presence outside of their cage. Your best bet would be introducing a couple (must be a couple in case introductions don't go well, so that the new degu isn't left alone too) of young baby degu boys or a young female, when he's old enough to be and has been castrated, although, even with these options there is the possibility you may be left with three cages, so it would be completley up to you as to whether you try this or just keep him alone (which I know isn't ideal, but you weren't the one that split him from his brother).

As for the poor balance I'm sure I saw a post on here from wodchip, as he adopted his degus, Buffy and willow from pets at home, where buffy had already lost most of her tail, and I think she had a few balance issues aswell, getting used to not having her tail.

As for the hay, I agree with smux, just leave it constantly available (in a rack if you have one) and he should start having a nibble of his own accord eventually, if he doesn't however, maybe restrict his hard feed so that his bowl empties a little and see if he'll snack on the hay instead. Also a thing you may want to try are the mini Alphalpha bales from P@H, they're little biscuit-like cubes of hay, so more like a texture he's used to and it just might make him more interested in the stuff.

As for the teeth, misalignment is a tell- tale sign of inbreeding from my research, as smux said there is a chance that they could look a little worse because they're overgrown or theres a possibility that he may have an absess, so a vet check would probably be for the best, but he may have just been born that way.

Finally, the sneezing! A lot of rodents do this as sort of a "nervous twitch" it could also be a sign of a behavioural abnormality from inbreeding, as long as there isn't a mucousy or bloody dicharge coming from his nose or mouth, it usually isn't anything to worry about and is absolutely fine.

I hope this helps!

[amie]

There's not much I can say here that hasn't been covered already, but I had a lone male who wouldn't accept any other degus and my other degus wouldn't accept him. YOUNG pups are the way to go. I'd personally adopt two 6 week old male pups and see how they get on

[woodchip]

It was me with Buffy. She had her tail amuptated while in a P@H tank, so never had multiple levels to play on. She's a lot more stable now (6 weeks later) but still misjudges to occassional jump, which results in a rather noisy scrabble for grip and a thud as she lands followed by the cat-style look of "I intended to do that".

We've also adopted Bobtail from Scubaa and Scubob who has a short tail (possibly from birth or a fight as a pup) and does the same sort of thing occasionally. I think it'll just be a trait throughout their lives that they'll have slight balance issues as they've lost a large chunk of their counterweight.

As for the introduction problems, I'd check out degutopia's introduction guide. We've been really lucky with our hoard as Willow and Buffy have taken to Bobtail quite well (so far). The big test will be when we get the new cage at the weekend and have 3 vanilla scented goos running around.

[degualot]

well firstly thank you all for the input and amazing responce.

Ady thanks for the offer but I live in Leeds and need to get some pups from a closer location although I am willing to travel outside of Leeds I think London is too far but thanks for the offer anyway.

smux thanks for your responce, I followed Degutopia's advice for introducing The boys with a Horizontal cage stup and put Taco above, I made little holes and then after a while Taco spotted Victor through the hole and went crazy like you say to make his mark and warn Victor off. The big problem came to play time, I took Victor in, then after he finished I took bobby and Taco in for their turn for an hour run about in a Room I degu proofed. Thats when Taco started attacking Bobby, it was like silent fighting, not the usual squabble when they moan and sqeek durring a tiff. Anyway they refused to give it no matter how much I tried to seperate them. EventuallyTaco Bit bobby and bobby bled a little. That's when I ended playtime and seperated them. Two hours later I put them back together and they cuddled and cleaned each other.

Does this mean I have to go through this everytime, they get wind of Victor because I don't want them to get hurt during playtime, otherwise I will just get new young pups to try with victor.

philbailey1806

Also thank you for your useful infomation, to be honest I did suspect from my observations of Victors pysical apperence that he might have been inbred, I thought this because he has a very weird frame, different from other Degus, It's hard to expain, and his eyes appear abnormaly big compared to any other Degu i've seen and also the teeth issue and sneezing is something I thought pointed to inbreeding. I will tell the vet to check his lungs again and if they suggest more anibiotics I'll take them, there's a DEgu vet in leeds so i'll see them, and if not maybe it is a problem with inbreeding which doesn't surprise me, people think breeding Degus is fun and don't give a hell. they do it because they are curious and don't think about the health of the Degus they breed. Like my silly niece who got rabbit, and never having rabbit before decided she wanted to breed them probably because she was bored. hate that.

anyway I will try with the alfalfa bales, Don't worry I realise they are a little high in protein so I will just use them as an introduction to hay and try shortening his hard feed to see if he eats more hay then reintroduce more hardfeed. wish me luck.

I'll also get onto trade and standards because this pet store is useless. I hate buying pets from pet stores but you feel guilty for leaveing them in such conditions. I know that only fuels the problem but I don't want Degus to suffer to prove a point.

Shaun

[philbailey1806]

Glad I could help and good luck at the vets! The petshops themselves can be just as bad inbreeding wise, by missexing, or maybe their degu source ran dry and they improvised? I suppose it's something we'll never know, but let us know how you get on, and a picture of victor would be great.

[degualot]

ok no problem as soon as I can i'll put a picture on.

[degualot]

I've now tried every kind of hay imaginable, I've cut down Victors hard feed and i've stopped giving him treats. Still he won't eat his hay,

Tried Bales, Hay cakes, 3 different types of timophy and different kinds of meadow and still he wont even take a bite.

Yet he will eat vegtables and he does chew on toys and eats his hard feed but he doesn;t like hay which is so strange for a Degu.

There's nothing left to try, i've exhausted every possible option but he just refuses to eat hay.

I think I may have the Worlds first none hay eating Degu. but I can't accept that, I fear for his health.

[philbailey1806]

Yes, even though he doesn't like it, I'd still make sure it was there in his cage anyway, you never know, he might come round! At my pets at home they didn't offer hay, only used it in their nest box so it was there, but when I brought them home and provided them with hay racks and timothy hay, they didn't know what to do at first, but they did start to eat it eventually! It just takes perseverance.

[deguconvert]

ARRRRGGGHHH!!!! I was just finishing a long reply and hit the wrong button on the keyboard that sent my composition into space. I have to run into the kitchen or risk burning our evening meal, so will say very briefly, hay is crucial to the degu diet. Both the incisors and the molars all need to have the wearing down action that comes through chewing on hay. All of these teeth need to be kept in trim condition so that they are able to eat. Good on you for working so hard to find something that will work for Victor. I think that if you do as Smux suggests in his last paragraph, reducing pellets and having hay in the usual food bowl, weighing it before and after to so you know what he is actually consuming, is great. I hope you will see some improvement!! I'll try to re-write what I was saying before I obliterated it, LOL!

[fred]

You are right to be concerned about Victor's refusal to eat hay (though there is no need to be alarmist). As deguconvert said and you yourself noted earlier, hay is absolutely crucial for degus.

There has been a recent study at the Avian and Exotic Animal Clinic at the University of Veterinary and Pharmaceutical Sciences in Brno. Of the 300 degus treated there 60% (!) had dental disease, mainly attributed to their diet. This is not something that should be downplayed. Hard feed cannot compensate for hay and willow sticks won't have any effect whatsoever.

Over the longer term you should continue trying to get him used to hay. Perhaps the best chance might be if you get him a companion who does eat hay and hope it catches on. For the time being you should try to maximise the wear on his molars. Try to only give him food with a high fibre content. Also keep an eye on the calcium to phosphorous ratio of the feed you use. The higher the better, if the ratio is close to 1 it may add to the problem (for examples for P&H nuggets it is 1.6 but for Gerty Guinea it is only 1.2). Personally I would have him X-rayed at your next vet visit to see how his molars are doing.

Once again, this not to unduly alarm you. You are aware of the problem and I am sure you will do a good job to keep it at manageable level.

[degualot]

thanks for all the advice, I will try putting hay in his food bowl and weighing it to see if he eats any.

Also once he has a companion, Hopefully that will make him happier. I'm looking at either getting him done and getting two girl pups or getting some young male pups. I want the best chance of success so any advice on that matter would be great.

I will also take him to the vet for x-rays to see how is molars are doing. His bottom teeth have a small V shaped gape in between them so I hope that's not the cause of this problems but like what was suggested, X-rays and a vets appointment (small animal vets), should help with that. I#'ll let you know.

[fred]

If you get him two girl pups, the risk that fights break out the future will be hugely reduced. Personally, I would make it dependent on the vet. With a competent vet neutering should be routine. So if you trust your vet, I would definitely go for the girls option.

[philbailey1806]

I agree with fred, it is a LOT more likely that a male degu will get on with two female pups better than any other degu. Just remember that a degu must be at least 12 months old before he is neutered.

I found that with my degus, if one ses the others eating something they aren't they go crazy for it, just to be pig headed- but then actually get the taste for it. Fred is quirte right, leading by example of another degu is the easiest way to introduce a new food.

[degualot]

yes I think I will go with that option, he's got another 2 month before he reaches 1 years old so i'll wait until then. Other than that I'll see what happens.

Still no success with the hay, don't worry, I never take hay away even if he doesn't eat it he will still have hay available. When the Girls arrive hopefully they can show him.

I'll probably be looking at the adoption part for when I need girls, obviously as young as possible. And I'm willing to travel to get them outside of Leeds depending how far it is.

[malteser60]

I don't have much more to add than what has already been said. Very thorough advice ;D

So, my bit of input, the missaligning of teeth is either due to genetics or poor diet, i.e. no hay. Unless he starts chewing on hay to wear down his teeth you'll have to keep an eye on them and may potentially need the vet to trim them down.

Just keep the hay in the cage and have lots and lots of patience, hopefully eventually he'll decide to investigate it and have a nibble. Also, degus seem notorious for copying, almost like little kids actually. So once he has friends and sees them eating hay he'll copy them.

The sneezing also seems to be more of an allergic reaction than being ill as you have no other signs of illness. Why don't you try, for a week, removing the bedding and using something like fleece or newspaper, just to see if it is the bedding that's causing the sneezing. Sort of do a process by elimination of the cause of the allergy. Most bedding still has a bit of dust, even if they are dust extracted.

As for the balance, it's still early days. I say let him get used to climbing up ledges. If you can make it so that the distance between ledges is not that big, and lots of ramps as well. Then gradually increase the distance as he gains more confidence and ability and learns how to overcome the lack of a tail. He will get better at it, promise, but just needs to relearn (or learn in his case) how to move and jump about. In a way he's almost like a pup for this bit.

And finally, it sounds like he has a much better life with you right now, even if he does end up on his own. I really hope not, although it's up to him to accept other degus, but at least he's with somebody that is giving him lots of love and letting him live like a degu.