Trouble with Introductions.

[spookymuffin]

Hi guys,

I had two adult male degus, Syaoran (almost two years old) and Pochi (a little over a year old) until I was seduced by an adorable baby male in my local pet shop and now I have three boys.
I felt that introductions were going pretty well over the last week but today everything went pear-shaped and I could do with some advice. I'll try to give a small summary of events over the last week:

Day 1: Set up the split cage and put the new baby (Touya) on one side and Syaoran/Pochi on the other. Lots of squeeking and chattering on behalf of the older boys.

Day 2: Decided to try and introduce them on neutral territory. Pochi and Touya get along pretty well but there is some agression between the new baby and Syaoran.

Day 3-Day 6: Pochi and Touya spend a few hours together on neutral territory before being returned to their respective cage sides. Syaoran and Touya are still being too aggressive toward one another to be left together for more than ten minutes.

Day 7: With my spray bottle in hand I decided to try the three of them together in a different introduction area. I stopped any potential fights with a quick water spray and after several hours I began to see some progress. Syaoran had started grooming Touya and the three of them even cuddled up together on their blanket.
While they were snoozing I decided to wash down their cage in the hopes of having them settled in together by tonight... That was when I started hearing a lot of screeching from my little guys. I went to check on them and imagine my surprise when I found that it was Syaoran and Pochi who were fighting!

I had to seperate them because they were drawing blood and there was fur flying everywhere. I have no idea why two degus who have been living together for a year would suddenly turn against each other in such a violent way.
I was expecting a shift in their social dynamic and therefore some minor scuffles, but not this level of animosity.

I kept Syaoran and Pochi apart for a few hours and tried to reintroduce them (a few hours apart usually does the trick) but no dice; they're still trying to kill each other.
I'm going to bed soon so I'll try them again in the morning, but I'm really worried and I'd be grateful for any advice on the matter.

P.s. Just to say that yes, I am sure that all three degus are male.

[degugirls]

LOL! So glad I looked back to see the "P.S." there. I was interrupted here and thought for a moment that I had read the whole posting.

So . . . all three are male . . . you're sure the baby isn't still making up his mind? LOL! Just kidding. It could be that with them both deciding to like the new little guy, they felt as though they had to reinforce who is boss between them again. Sometimes bringing in someone new seems to upset the whole balance of power and it all has to be re-established. I think I would try to keep the two fighters apart for a bit . . . and maybe see if Pochi and Syaoran will accept touya separately. That would mean swapping him between him . . . but then again . . . he is little and I wouldn't want to leave him in with one or the other full time until you can feel confident that he is safe with them (one on one). Once you are sure that he is safe with both of them in the different halves of the cage, then maybe try all three again in neutral territory. If this doesn't make sense, please be sure to ask for clarification. (This is deguconvert borrowing my daughters computer/degu world account, since mine is in use by someone else at the moment.)

[Mojo]

Hi having recently done successful intros with pairs of males and then these males with 3 girls I think you are maybe rushing it (intros after a day is far too quick as they won't have settled yet). I have put some general advice below.

In the case of you two originals fighting this is down to a shift in power caused by the little one (as deguconvert said). I had this issue when I introduced my males to my females. As soon as the females went into the cage (behind the split) the males all started to fight for dominance. There was a few scapes but nothing too serious and after a day or two is settled down and I could start to think about intros......... In your case fighting that draws blood in small scratches this isn't too serious and sometimes this can actually lead to one submitting to the other. When severe wounds and blood is regulalry drawn then it becomes a serious issue and they need seperating. You need to judge how serious the fighting is and sometimes bear with it. It's very hard to hear you little Goos go at it but if they don't get to settle their dominance issues they will never be able to go back together. So seperation may be the answer but it may also be counter productive.

The other answer is neutering. This has been a huge help in reducing agression in my Degus and is an option if your continue to fight.


Some general Intro advice
I think you should leave them for at least a week with the split before trying any introductions (maybe even 2). During this time make sure they eat the same food, use the same dust bath with vanilla essence in it and swap sides every few days. This will get them smelling the same and get them familiar with each others scent. Then move to intros. I'd follow the degutopia guide as it's been very very successful for me. I can't stress enough the patience you need. It took me like 8 weeks to get my males together so it can take time. Big tell tale signs of when intros on neutral ground might go well are when they interact through the mesh without aggressive squeaks. When they start to chirp at each other they are starting to get along. Also I noticed that when they start to bite the bars when the degus (on the other side) are not around it's a sign that they want to get in there and spend time (good sign). Bar biting when the degus are in front of them generally means they want to get at each other (not good). Also keep an eye out for times when one lot of goos is at the mesh and the others can see this but are happy to chill out elsewhere. This lack of excitment shows they are getting used to each other..........

Remember keep going, be patient and give it plenty of time. 1st step I'd leave them split for a week (or maybe more) like stated above before trying anything further...........

Let us know how you ge on

[spookymuffin]

Thanks for the responses, deguconvert and Mojo.

Syaoran and Pochi are still being very aggressive through the bars that seperate them, I don't think that I'm going to try and reintroduce them just yet. Tomorrow, I'll try to let them fight it out and try not to intervene too early.
If letting them have a bit of a scrap is what it takes then I'm willing to put aside my concerns.

I had thought about neutering but I have a few concerns. I'm worried about the operation itself and how it's very dangerous for small animals and I'm really worried that neutering will change their personalities too much.
I've had a bad experience in the past with neutering as well. I had a male guinea pig neutered and he actually became more aggressive after the operation.

I'll keep you updated anyway. Thanks for the help, guys.

[Mojo]

let us know how it goes but take it slow and sand bath them before. You need to judge when the fight gets too serious. If i were you i would leave it a few days or a week before introducing them

[deguconvert]

I agree with Mojo. You need to give them some time to calm down. They are real little grudge holders these furries, and it takes time to let it go.

[spookymuffin]

Okay, so I've been gradually reintroducing them and everything seems to be going well.
They're all in the same cage now and getting along. I've seen them sleeping together, grooming and eating from the same food bowl without any major fights.

I'll probably separate them tonight because I'm a little wary of leaving them unsupervised just yet, but things are looking pretty good.

Thanks for the help, guys.

[Mojo]

It sounds like they are getting along it might be the right time to leave them together but you are better judging this.

Keep us updated

[deguconvert]

Just a heads up, which will hopefully not be necessary . . . once baby is coming into his sexual maturity at age 6 months, the fighting could flare up again as the idea of dominance and his own masculine importance seizes his brain.

[iggypop13]

hi im new to the forum, weve obserbed this in the wild with nabouring clans they arnt as cute as you migh think, but they will excpt other females with much patiants as said, I dont no what they are like in captivity (just adopted our first girls yesterday)