Possible elodontoma?

[lilma]

Hello,

It's my first time posting here. i am currently raising two goos, one 10-month-old named Hanni, and one 4-month-old named Kiji, both girls. Hanni's severely underweight, weighing only 155 gram from months ago and not growing, and she's been having sniffing problem for months. Recently Hanni sleeps a lot under her tiny quilt. At first we thought it's the weather that makes her wanna lie down and get warm, so we left the aircondition on most of the time. BUT  days ago we found Hanni's slightly pop-eyed and not eating or moving as much, so we take her to the vet's to take x-ray and have feces test. The vet says that she has a minor elodontoma problem which may have effected her eyeball and nasal capacity but nothing to worry too much about. We also found out in the X-ray a bloating prooblem.

Now Hanni's been home under observation for 2 days. We wanna do everything we can to make her feel better, but are worried that what we've done may not be enough. 

What we did today:
Providing unlimited timothy hay, 5g dandelion leaves and chicory leaves and 5g pellets.
Feeding hanni 5g Oxbow critcare.
Feeding Hanni 1/2 g Bene-bac for bloating problem and 0.05ml matacam for pain relief.
Adding 1 drop of Versele-Laga C-Vit in 50ml water.

Our doubts:

1. Is this the appropriate method of feeding now? Should we add in some other foods like calcium-rich seed?
2. Is she facing very serious dental problems now? What are the chances that it will continue to get worse? What can we do to prevent it from happening?



Hanni's current condition:

1. she will eat some hay and pellets voluntarily.

2. she stil wants to escape from her cage and would like some treats.

3. she still interacts and cuddles with her sister and runs on wheel together.

4. sometimes she lies on one side under a blanket, eyes half closed.

Hanni's x-ray

[lilma]

Our 3 major concerns:
1. Underweight.
2. Elodontoma.
3. Bloating.

The pellets may be causing the bloating problem so we cut it down to 5g for 2 degus. Is it possible to make a trasition (within one week without causing other problems) from our current diet( Unlimited Timothy hay, wheat hay, dandelion leaves, chicory leaves and pellets) to another (unlimited timothy hay, dandelion leaves, chirory leaves and seeds mix). the seeds mix consist of fennel, cumin, dill, corriander, fungreek, nigella, sesame, chia, linseed.

[savvy]

Welcome to the forum, I'm sorry to hear about the problems you and Hanni are experiencing.

I'm not that well up on her condition, others on the forum may be, but in terms of her diet, I'd try adding flowers to the mix to give her some variety. If you look at the stickies in this section deguworld.proboards.com/board/24/diet-nutrition it will give you some ideas on forage blends, nuts, seeds, etc.

I'm tagging bouncy who has quite a bit of experience with dental issues.

[lilma]

Jan 9, 2024 14:24:32 GMT savvy said:

Welcome to the forum, I'm sorry to hear about the problems you and Hanni are experiencing.

I'm not that well up on her condition, others on the forum may be, but in terms of her diet, I'd try adding flowers to the mix to give her some variety. If you look at the stickies in this section deguworld.proboards.com/board/24/diet-nutrition it will give you some ideas on forage blends, nuts, seeds, etc.

I'm tagging bouncy who has quite a bit of experience with dental issues.

Thank you so much! I will try adding some calendula in. Is it possible to achieve a 0-pellet diet within one week. Will it cause disturbance in her belly?

[savvy]

I rescued a degu who had been fed only on pellets and hay. I tried to do a gradual change to a forage based diet, but he was having none of it. Within 24 hours he was back footing the pellets at me, lol!

You may find they set their own time frame.

[bouncy]

You can always change a degu's diet, but do it slowly to avoid upset tummies.

Savvy is correct, I have and have had degus with dental issues, from molar spurs to significant roots overgrowth.

I must first say the roots aren't too disastrous. I'm afraid there's nothing you can really do about this, except manage pain.

Firstly, there is some evidence that a lack of vitamin D can contribute to dental spurs and roots. This is because window glass blocks virtually all of the UV rays coming into a room. Pellets are great for this because most quality pellets contain vit D (check the packet). The problem comes when you move to a more natural diet. If you continue to use pellets (which are mushed up leaves and plant material to stop selective eating), do NOT use added vitamin D.

If you're moving to a natural diet, then please read this thread:

deguworld.proboards.com/thread/21679/degu-dental-issues-results-experiment

Now, I'd ask you to consider something else that I personally only came across this year. Like you, I have a pup who is very small. In fact, he hasn't grown since he was three months old, and is now one year. This makes his brother look extremely obese, whereas he is actually normal!

My little dude is only 119g. He does have extremely bad roots but, we also found other issues. When we and other animals are born, our bones are softer. In a degu, the skull plates should harden and join by four weeks. This apparently didn't happen with mine, which has led to his stunted size. It can also cause hydrocephalus - excessive fluid in the skull. It might be worth asking your vet to check on this? Mine had never seen it in a degu before?

Otherwise the advice in the threads Savvy linked you to is sound.

[moletteuk]

I just want to mention in case the vet didn't explain that the bloating may be because the nasal passage is significantly obstructed which forces the degu to breathe through the mouth, which degus aren't designed to do and so this makes them swallow air causing the bloating. I'm slightly concerned that this might indicate the nasal obstruction is quite significant or perhaps there is some infection in there that could be making it worse. If the bloating gets severe you can give drops of simethicone, which you should be able to buy as drops for babies with colic, it has different product names in different countries. If you watch you should be able to see if Hanni is opening her mouth to breathe sometimes which is then followed by the bloating being worse and that will tell you if what I mention is indeed happening with Hanni.

I wouldn't significantly alter the diet at this time. Offer unlimited pellets to both degus (young degus need more food than adults), pellets are unlikely to cause bloating, check they contain good levels of calcium and vitamin d (>1% calcium). Add unlimited forage of a variety of types if you can. You can offer some high calcium seeds if you would like to try that. If you notice that they start to eat lots of forage and less pellets you can then think about supplementing vitamin d. You can offer a small vitamin d supplement or use a UV lamp if you would like to try that.

See how she gets on with the metacam, you may be able to increase the dose if necessary.

[lilma]

Jan 9, 2024 16:17:47 GMT moletteuk said:

I just want to mention in case the vet didn't explain that the bloating may be because the nasal passage is significantly obstructed which forces the degu to breathe through the mouth, which degus aren't designed to do and so this makes them swallow air causing the bloating. I'm slightly concerned that this might indicate the nasal obstruction is quite significant or perhaps there is some infection in there that could be making it worse. If the bloating gets severe you can give drops of simethicone, which you should be able to buy as drops for babies with colic, it has different product names in different countries. If you watch you should be able to see if Hanni is opening her mouth to breathe sometimes which is then followed by the bloating being worse and that will tell you if what I mention is indeed happening with Hanni.

I wouldn't significantly alter the diet at this time. Offer unlimited pellets to both degus (young degus need more food than adults), pellets are unlikely to cause bloating, check they contain good levels of calcium and vitamin d (>1% calcium). Add unlimited forage of a variety of types if you can. You can offer some high calcium seeds if you would like to try that. If you notice that they start to eat lots of forage and less pellets you can then think about supplementing vitamin d. You can offer a small vitamin d supplement or use a UV lamp if you would like to try that.

See how she gets on with the metacam, you may be able to increase the dose if necessary.

Just checked the ingredients of all of my pellets and the calcium percentage is mostly 0.8%. I’m gonna give them some seeds as a supplement. I asked the vet if Hanni’s bloating was related to oral breathing, haven’t got a reply. I’m not sure how to confirm that she’s breathing through the mouth. I observed her for a while and didn’t see any sign of her breathing with obvious open mouth. 

We have an appointment with another vet in a few hours, and we’ll take Hanni’s X-ray and feces test report there.

She escaped cunningly just now when we were feeding her cc.

[lilma]

So we came back from the vet with some medicine and probiotics that could help Hanni’s bloating. The vet told us that her dental problem has not been fatal so far, but her bloating problem needs to be solved immediately. We mixed the medicinal powder and critical care together, and Hanni ate happily. After taking metacam, she took a lot of grass. But about an hour later, she lay under her quilt again, eyes half closed, looked very sleepy, which worried us.

I still have some questions about metacam. Hanni is now suffering from bloating while having dental problems, so we feed her metacam every day. If her bloating is relieved, does she still need to take metacam every day due to her dental problems? In addition to pain relief, will metacam also help the nasal cavity works?

Thanks for your help!

[savvy]

Your vet is right, the bloating does need sorting quickly.

Metacam is the painkiller and will be needed long term to help with her molar root problems. It can be used long term and a lot of us have had degus on metacam for continuous pain relief.

It is quite common for degus to nap after eating so I wouldn't be too concerned; napping is one of their favourite pastimes.

[bouncy]

Agree with Savvy. Degus love to be lazy, particularly when a heat pad is involved!

Don't stop Metacam. It's going to be a daily thing for life now, but degus have a very good tolerance. It also has a cumulative effect, so you don't see the best results until perhaps day three.

[lilma]

Thanks a lot! They do have a heat pad under their cage.

Then we won’t stop the Metacam, just a little worried about the potential kidney burden.

Hope she’ll get better soon from bloating, and we’ll try to provide them with better food for their teeth by adjusting the Ca and P ratio. Hanni’s a very tough girl, I think her sister is as worried about her as we are...

[savvy]

Degus can metabolise metacam much better than most animals.

Getting their diet right will come in time, and we were all new to looking after degus at some point, and you never stop learning. You'll get there.

[moletteuk]

Once you feel like things are more steady I would review the metacam. It may have some small effect on reducing inflammation in the nasal passage. Sometimes it can help to tell how helpful the metacam is by reducing or increasing the dose while everything else is the same and see if there is decline or improvement. As already mentioned, metacam is usually well tolerated, it can cause digestive issues or loss of appetite in some degus though, that is the main thing to be aware of, we have not seen any noticeable kidney damage on the forum.

[lilma]

Things seem to be getting better, Hanni loves her cc and Kiji enjoys the feeling that she can have pellets along. Hanni is spending more time on the wheel, less time lying under her blanket, so I guess this is a good news. We installed a UV lamp above their cage because the weather here is usually cloudy in winter and both of them love the light. But I don't want to be too optimistic, there are still some signs that worry us.

1. We can't tell whether she is breathing through her mouth. So I want to ask if she will open her mouth obviously when doing this? I hope we haven't missed these signs.
2. She's on 0.05ml Metacam every day,but still sneezes sometimes. Should I increase the dose or it's gonna be a common thing that she sneezes because there's already a dental problem?
3. We are some worried that the dust in the bedding will affect her respiratory function, and we suspect that she may sometimes eat some bedding. Any recommendations? For now we are using Aspen Shavings and KAYTEE Pet Bedding.

We are truly grateful for your help. We'll take her to the vet tomorrow, hope things are really getting better.

[teemu]

1. Unless her breathing was very, very challenged, I don't think you could see it from her mouth. Rodents, due to having long front teeth, have a lot more space there, so you'd have to be paying really close attention to notice if her mouth is a bit more open. But if you do notice her gasping for breath at some point, then that is a clear indication of issues.

2. I'm not totally sure about this, so hopefully someone else can weigh in on this.

3. I'll note that some sources say that aspen is toxic and can cause issues, but that this information has generally been proven to not be true by owners. I'm mentioning it mostly because if you try to search for information online, you'll probably see something claiming this. It should not be an issue, and I've used aspen with rats as well, and they are a lot more sensitive to this.
However, if you want to be totally sure there's a minimal amount of dust, it is possible to shake the dust out of the bedding before using it. Basically, using whatever means that work for you, take the bedding out of the bag, and shake it (preferrably in a well-ventilated area) to make the dust clinging to it fall out. This can be quite a hassle since unless you have a big colander or something like that you're basically going to be shaking little handfuls all day, but this will reduce the amount of dust in bedding or hay.

[lilma]

Jan 12, 2024 7:16:46 GMT teemu said:

1. Unless her breathing was very, very challenged, I don't think you could see it from her mouth. Rodents, due to having long front teeth, have a lot more space there, so you'd have to be paying really close attention to notice if her mouth is a bit more open. But if you do notice her gasping for breath at some point, then that is a clear indication of issues.

2. I'm not totally sure about this, so hopefully someone else can weigh in on this.

3. I'll note that some sources say that aspen is toxic and can cause issues, but that this information has generally been proven to not be true by owners. I'm mentioning it mostly because if you try to search for information online, you'll probably see something claiming this. It should not be an issue, and I've used aspen with rats as well, and they are a lot more sensitive to this.
However, if you want to be totally sure there's a minimal amount of dust, it is possible to shake the dust out of the bedding before using it. Basically, using whatever means that work for you, take the bedding out of the bag, and shake it (preferrably in a well-ventilated area) to make the dust clinging to it fall out. This can be quite a hassle since unless you have a big colander or something like that you're basically going to be shaking little handfuls all day, but this will reduce the amount of dust in bedding or hay.

We did notice that sometimes she was short of breath. So far, there's no secretion in her eyes and nose, but we'll also discuss the possibility of RI with the vet. We'll give her some antibiotics if necessary. 

I think maybe we'll turn to some paper bedding. We began to shake the bedding with a sieve months ago, which can really reduce some dust. But when we change their bedding, we still find that there's a lot of dust at the bottom of the cage, sometimes it even makes us sneeze. Maybe the shavings we bought are of poor quality:( The sawdust is too fine that some of them are tightly clung to the shavings until girls run and roll in it. 

[savvy]

I be inclined to keep the metacam dose as it is, it can always be increased later if its found not to be controlling her pain, but from what you've said, its working at its current dose.

I've had degus on metacam long term and I've never had them sneeze because of it. I think its dust related.

Dust at the bottom of the cage can be from many causes; fur, skin, sand from their bath, food bits, the list goes on. I know a few people have said that certain beddings are more dusty than others. My vet recommended using a bamboo toilet tissue as a bedding material. Mine love it and its a source of enrichment when they drag long strips of loo roll around their cages.

If you are finding the aspen substrate too dusty, you could switch to Bedmax shavings.

[lilma]

We took Hanni to the vet yesterday. Her bloating is getting better, but still needs probiotics to help digestion.

What really worries us is her sneezing. She has been sneezing for the past few days, and it has become even worse since she came back from the vet yesterday. We just found out that she has a little runny nose. Yesterday's examination results showed that her lungs were not infected. She has been on matacam, and we replaced her bedding with the dust-free one. Her spirit has improved a lot, but the problem of sneezing has not been solved. Should I give her antibiotics? We’re afraid that taking her to the vet again will make her catch a cold. It's not warm outside, and going to the vet also puts a lot of pressure on her.

[bouncy]

Try a substrate with less dust. Look at things that are paper-based, such as Carefresh, or hemp. Alternatively, try horse shavings. They are much bigger, so it's easy to avoid dust. Mine love them because they also chew them!