Degu Dental Issues - Results of an Experiment

[bouncy]

We all know that Degu's have molar dental issues, and some have problems with both ends of the teeth (spurs and roots).  Treatment for ongoing issues is limited for both. Roots can be managed with pain relief, and molars require trimming under general anaesthetic. We also know that the diet should have a Ca:P ratio of 2:1.

All of my Degu's are on 100% natural diet, with supplementary seeds and occasional nuts.

Scaredygoo has Elodontoma (molar roots through the nasal cavities), and has been having three-month molar trims. 

I reintroduced a UV lamp at the start of the year (a couple of weeks after a dental treatment), but he still required another three month trim. A couple weeks after this, I started putting vitamin D drops in the water of both groups. Three to four drops per bottle. This is standard liquid supplement available from Boots (and other pharmacies) for babies. 

Has it made a difference?  YES!

Scaredy and I just got back from seeing John Chitty. This is FIVE months since his last treatment. John told me that, instead of the full spurs he usually sees, these were nodules.  Not even fully formed spurs! None of the other five goos are showing any adverse reactions from having this dose, so I'll continue! We've not repeated xrays to see what's been happening to the roots, but the little dude is certainly not looking to be in any discomfort, and currently weights more than Sillygoo. 

What now? I'll continue the dose. If I continue to see this level of improvement, I may ask John about some more new xrays whilst he's having another treatment. We can then compare to the previous ones. 

[titchycatnipsandwich]

That's brilliant!

I think the UV lamp will still be helping, but vitamin D creation from sunlight on skin is... I wanna say slower, but I don't think that's what I mean. Before I clarify that thought process, what is the name of the vitamin D in the ingredients list? Is it colecalciferol, alpha-calcidol, ergocalciferol or something else?

[bouncy]

It's cholecalciferol

[titchycatnipsandwich]

Ok, so my original thought process is irrelevant. I was going to say that sunlight on skin makes colecalciferol, which needs activating (in humans, at least) by both liver and kidneys, in two separate processes, before it can be used by the body. If the drops had been not-colecalc, that might have explained the faster response.

Now I'm wondering whether degus have sufficient skin surface area for vitamin D production.

*falls down rabbit hole*

[bouncy]

I have wondered! When choosing my uv lamp, I got a desert instead of a rainforest. My logic was that the sun is the sun, and lamp only shines on the top level of the cage. That would be similar, then, to the wild where they may sunbathe, be underground in their burrow, or shaded by undergrowth. This would also help allow for the goo that sat on the shelf directly below the bulb vs the one who ran in the shaded wheel.

I'm going to pass the information on to John when I email him to see what he says, as he's done extensive general research. He always asks me to drop him an email the next day to confirm he's eating again.

[deguconvert]

Very, very interesting!! Love this thread!

[bouncy]

It is tentative, though, as too much vitamin D can cause problems.

[deguconvert]

Yes . . . I know it can . . . but still! This is very interesting and exciting.

[bouncy]

Even better, Scaredy was back eating again within five hours! Just emailing John, and will let you know what he says.

[deguconvert]

EXCELLENT!!!! Woo hoo!!

[bouncy]

OK, spoke to John. The four drops I put in the 600ml bottles are showing no toxicity in Scaredy (who is the only goo he sees). He recommends keeping the same dose, and to go easy on the calcium.

This will, really, be a long-term experiment, so I'll update with each dental treatment!

[deguconvert]

Getting better all the time!!

[moletteuk]

This is incredible!!! I think the Vitamin D effectively curing him is mindblowing!!

Can you tell me what the concentration of the vit D drops is? And exactly what you are doing? 3 or 4 drops in 600ml water and how much do your 3 drink per day on average? Have you figured out a daily/ weekly dose?

What toxicity did John Chitty look for? And what did he mean by go easy on the calcium? (seeds?)

Tell me everything!!!!

I think we probably need to get all regular members with dental issue goos trying this ASAP to see if they get similar results.

Also, what UV lamp do you have?

[bouncy]

Lamp - I use a desert lamp, instead of rainforest. The logic behind the latter is that it takes into account leaf coverage in a single level aquarium.

Because the lamp only shines on the top level, it gets darker the lower down you go. To me, this simulates the natural habit of sunbathing, undergrowth, all the way down to the burrow (Chelsea extension).

The lamp in both cages is on a timer, coming on about 8.30am for 12 hours.


Drops -
The ones I've bought are "Ddrops", product of Canada! The liquid is vitamin D3 - cholecalciferol in fractionated coconut oil.
Quantity - 4 drops using the Eurodropper, 400IU per drop in a 600ml bottle. Each group of three usually gets through this quantity of water every couple of weeks.
Toxicity - Toxicity levels for degus, or even humans, are not known.

Symptoms are noted in significant excess. These are most obviously hyperglycaemia (high blood sugar diabetes), deposits of excess calcium in soft tissue (as opposed to urine secretions) and abnormal bone growth or formation.

[yasmin]

Brilliant, bouncy.

I am going to try and implement this with mine.

[moletteuk]

So they are consuming the equivalent of 4 drops every 2 weeks between 3 degus?

4x400IU /14 days /3 degus = 38IU per degu per day

[titchycatnipsandwich]

Based on Molette's maths, if anyone wanted to make treat-biscuit things...

You'd need to put one drop of 400unit/drop in with 9 drops of water, mix that and then drop the resulting solution onto treat-biscuit things, 1 drop per treat thing. Or, put one drop of unedited stuff on a little treat thing and feed roughly every fortnight, would also work.

In humans you can dose colecalciferol daily, weekly or monthly - I don't know for definite about degus but this might be an alternative to the water bottle for degus like mine that I never seem to catch at the bottle ever, and the water level takes ages to drop...

[moletteuk]

I think it is possible to buy 200IU strength for babies, so one drop of that per degu per week works out at 200/7 days = 28.6IU per day, which could be handy and simple.

[moletteuk]

So, I bought two lots of vitamin d drops from holland and barrett the other day, I got the childrens one and the babies one. They are £3.99 each or 2 for £5 at the moment, 30ml bottles.

The children's one contains 8.5 micrograms or 340 IU of vit D3 per 0.5ml of liquid. It comes with a dropper built in which shows 0.5 and 1.0ml but you can also easily estimate amounts in between.

With Flossie being unwell, my lot are eating even fewer pellets than usual, so I gave them each about 0.2ml, which would be 136 IU. They took it neat on a small piece of shredded wheat, they didn't seem to mind the taste. I'm planning on doing this weekly for now.

I think I saw more whiteness of calcium in the pee for the following couple of days.


The baby dose vit D looks to have the same bottle and dropper, but the dropped doesn't have any measurements on it. The dosing information on the packet says: Three drops provides 5 micrograms of 200 IU of vit D3. But it doesn't give any indication of the dose per ml. The drops come out big with the dropper. I'll have to contact H&B to see if they can tell me the Vit D/ml.

[moletteuk]

Holland and Barrett got back to me, the baby strength drops contain 5 micrograms or 200 IU per 3 drops and they are equating this to 0.5ml

I reckon this means that one drop of children's strength (0.167ml) gives 113 IU and one drop of baby strength gives 67 IU.

@titchy would you recommend giving the drops on food, rather than water, in case the drops sit on top of the water due to being in oil while the degu drinks from the dropper at the bottom?

In terms of max dosage in one go, max strength human vit d tablets seem to be 10,000 IU, so converting that from a 70kg human to a 250g degu would be 34 IU. Not sure how meaningful that is, but seemed interesting to convert to doses I am familiar with.