Pulla's not keeping weight

[teemu]

Yeah, the weight is more worrisome right now than the teeth, and ultimately if the teeth cause issues they can get fixed, but nothing but he himself can put weight in him. He was so skinny when he was put under for the dental, and wasn't bunching up like he usually does.

I'm going to try leaving moistened pellets in the cage going forward. I noticed that Pipari is really suspicious of them and was not interested when I showed her. I think since she has trouble identifying things anyway, they don't really resemble food to her. So it might be that she won't even care if there's some in the cage so Pulla can eat whenever he feels like. Normally I can always offer him pellets, but it'd be nice during school days or so on, so that he doesn't need to have any intervals without food.

On that note, Pipari has fortunately lost some of her excess weight due to keeping her on a diet. She's still really hefty, but she is also just massive in skeletal size compared to some of the others here, so it's not just fat. Whenever I compare her to someone else (she no longer minds at all if I lift some other degu to her level outside the cage, so I sometimes compare them), it's really jarring how she looks colossal next to them. Handling her feels more like handling a (fairly small) rat. Pulla especially looks so feeble next to his cagemate. He's a bit intimidated by it, I think.

[teemu]

Checking his weight today, he is up by 5g, to 185g. He even dipped into the 170s (only slightly, to 179 or 178), so it's a relief. And he hasn't even been eating particularly heavily today, so I know it's not just from a full belly. Clearly he agrees with the new things we're doing.

[teemu]

I've been a bit quiet lately, but unfortunately it doesn't look like this is actually making an impact on him as much as I hoped. His weight did go up temporarily, but it's down now, and it's now not rare to see it at the high 170s. He is often 181-183g, but that's clearly just dependent on how much food is in him at any moment.

I have seen him eating more, lately, so I hope it might actually pick up, but I don't really know what else I can do at this point. He's getting everything he can eat, except any more CC than is necessary (and that is of course the one thing he would eat all day...)

He is sadly really skinny nowadays. It's hard to notice because he bunches up, but if I straighten him (for example when he's on my lap, if I lift his upper body so that he's more upright and not hunched), you can just see how skinny he is. My wife was actually really shocked yesterday when I showed her, since it really is hard to notice it normally. I mostly notice because his flanks are very bony.

He still seems to be enjoying life, and he's active and runs in the wheel and comes to look at me in the morning, socializes with Pipari and all the other things. I don't think he is suffering. But he is clearly anorexic, and I'm not sure what I can do about it. I try to give him extra treats (nuts, seeds, whatever with a lot of calories), and he often just stashes it.

It's also clear he's weaker nowadays than earlier. Used to be that it was impossible to actually for example restrain him on my hands because he pushed back hard and nipped quite hard if he felt any hands grabbing him (which is totally normal, of course), but now I've realized that he can no longer do that. Once or twice when I've had to grab him (like when I'm handling him and he gets spooked and tries to leap), he just does not do anything about it any more. It's kind of shocking, since he was pretty robust, always, even if he was small. But I suppose he is pushing 6 now, so it's also not strange as such.

Would someone have tips for if there is something I should especially watch for/make sure he gets (more so than all the usual feeding, of course), as a senior? I want to make sure that I'm giving him all the possible help. And if someone has ideas for what else I could try to offer him that's safe to eat, I would appreciate it. Right now he gets pellets (moistened or unmoistened), dandelion root, hay, forage (various assorted dried green plant bits, grasses etc) and any number of nuts, seeds etc. (I often grind these up and mix them in with his Science Supreme Recovery Plus/CC mix, because it's totally random when he'll eat them otherwise, if at all), and some extra calcium since there's not a lot of it otherwise.

[yasmin]

Has Pulla had a full-body X-ray?

(I have male two degus (brothers) who are having eating issues. Jet will only readily eat dried plant matter and Versele-Laga Herb Crock treats. Not sure why but it seems that when I give him Metacam he seems to eat a bit more - however, not sure if it is just my imagination so I will be continuing observing him on and off of Metacam.

Jax, Jet's brother, has drooled for years. He has had spurs removed several times but the drooling and on-and-off closed right eye continued, and now he looks miserable and very skinny. On Friday, the vet did a full-body X-ray on him and found that the base of his tongue is extremely enlarged and his lips are larger than normal so he might be having trouble both grabbing the food in his mouth and then swallowing it. Worst case is lymphoma, or other sort of tumour - best case, the tongue is swollen for another reason. Decided to see if Prednisone would work and, so far, each day he is looking a bit better. Eating is still selective. He refuses all wet food - he has never liked wet food - but goes for oats and puffed rice and I have seen him chewing on the bark of apple sticks.)

In the past, with my senior degus, I've had some success with the following:
• dried pea flakes
• oats
• spray millet
• sliced almonds
• Versele-laga Herb Crock treats

If they are okay with wet food:
• baby food - sweet potato, pea, carrot, green bean - mixed with critical care or a ground pellet or two. I put it on a spoon and then served it to them. They seemed to like the attention and personal service.
• I grind up oats, added some hot water to make a porridge, let it cool and fed them that.
• Ground pellets or almond flour with a bit of water added and then shaped into small soft shapes.
• Thawed green peas.
• Cat grass.

[teemu]

I've been thinking that I should consider a second vet visit. He did not have a full body picture taken, since they found that there was a lot wrong with his teeth for the first time ever and that took all the time that was available, and seemed like a clear explanation. But since it's not doing it, I should get a second one while he's still in a weight where he managed it last month. He was already so out of it like this.

Thank you for the tips. Pulla is actually getting Metacam. I'm not sure it's actually doing much. It does not look like he is in any pain (he really is energetic, one reason it kinda snuck up on us how skinny he is is that he's always really spunky, even if he is a lot weaker nowadays), or that he's not eating because of that. He just... doesn't. (Though of course he could be hiding the pains).

About the foods, I could certainly test some of those. He is very intrested in oats or porridge or stuff like that, if he ever finds anything on the kitchen floor if I've missed something. I guess there's a lot of carbs in some of that stuff, but is that going to be a problem? But then again, not eating and wasting away is a more acute problem at this point...

[moletteuk]

My seniors just wanted carbs. Mine always liked dried veg, so I started offering more of those as keeping weight on became more important and then as they got weaker, they just wanted carbs, and preferably grains. It was simpler for me because by this point I knew mine had no predisposition to dental disease, but I used to supplement with calcium anyway. The other thing that I swear extended their lives was that they all got a taste for fresh forage when they were old and weaker which they weren't interested in in their prime. I think this counterbalanced the extra carb junk food.

[teemu]

Fresh forage is definitely something I should try. I generally only have dry forage. He hasn't been so interested in it, but he does pick out the good stuff.

[teemu]

Well, I tried baby food today (it was actually pretty low in carbs and had almost no sugar, so it's probably not nearly the worst thing he could have), and he really seemed to like it. It's weird, because he almost seemed really excited after eating it. He was way more alert and just seemed energetic in general and stood straighter than normal. Almost as if he was just really happy for it. I was also able to mix in more of the Science Supreme stuff, which should be healthier than the CC, so I think this might do a lot of good for him, really.

[hpdegus]

Glad he's liking the baby food! I've gone through something similar with several of mine, and baby oatmeal (basically ground oats) has always been a favorite. I can mix it in with SSR or even sprinkle it on top and they generally love it. Wishing the best to you and Pulla.

[teemu]

His weight was still inching down (like a couple of grams, but when it starts tickling 170 instead of 180...), so I have basically just done away with any restrictions now and he gets to eat whatever he cares to eat. I know that it will, practically, kill him in the long run, but this will kill him in a much shorter one, so I think I have to just accept that it's the less bad outcome.

He's eaten a lot more now. He eats three or four times a day when it's soaked oats, CC, baby food and whatever. Sometimes he wants the pellets too, but he's really, really fussy about the pellets. It's really specific what pellets are okay to eat and what are not, and it takes so much time and wastes so much food to try to give them to him. And Pipari has gotten to be a real downright brute about it, since she realizes he's got food and doesn't actually fight back if it's taken. So I have to keep checking her to make sure she doesn't just eat it all.

I'm half-wondering if some of the issues here are just that Pulla's afraid to eat because he knows he'll get bullied. He only starts eating if Pipari isn't next to him. I've tried to feed him on my lap, and the good stuff goes just fine, but no pellets yet. I've started grinding some down to the nicer things so he gets at least some of the nutrients.

I'll be calling the vet next week. I hope I can get his weight up just a bit for it.

It's sad, but I'm starting to acknowledge the fact that he will likely not be around for too much longer, like this. If there's nothing badly wrong with him and he's just, I don't know, actually anorexic somehow, then at least I can keep feeding him like this and there will be some time. But I will have to do some serious thinking about what to do if they find something wrong in him. He's lively, and he's constantly active, so it really does not feel like his actual quality of life is terrible. Eating more has even given him energy to fuss and squabble with me a bit like earlier in life. But I think if the situation does not pick up, his condition will reach a critical point and collapse fast, since he's starting to be really skinny. I would much rather not have him go through that.

But it really just depends on the next days and weeks.

[moletteuk]

I am sorry to hear that this is turning into something of a losing battle, these long term issues really take their toll on us humans, especially when you have to work on feeding several times a day.

I think you are right to let him eat whatever he wants at this point, the vet checkup also seems wise. The only thing I can think of to mention, that you may not wish to consider at all, would be to do a trial separation of Pulla and Pipari to see if Pipari is affecting Pulla's eating. It may not be worth the upset, probably depends how strong your suspicion is about this and how much disruption it might cause and difficulty getting them back together.

[teemu]

It's sadly been something that has slowly been getting worse. It's been a long time since he wasn't having some kind of issues with eating. But at least it's something that gives time to come to terms with it. I hope I can at least make sure the rest of his days are tolerably good. He seems to still be spirited and active.

Today he ate a bit worse than usual (he sometimes seems to not just realize he's hungry), but I did feed him twice and get him some snacks, so it's not like he's refusing food. Fortunately, this has also picked his weight up, and he's back to 180g now.

I think it is for the best to let them be together. They have started spending a lot more time sleeping in the same spots or socializing, and I believe Pulla is still happier with that than having to lose his third cagemate. Knowing Pipari's past, it might be difficult to reintegrate them at all, and I also think it might be very stressful on her since any major change in her environment is so hard for her. I'm thinking I could try to remove Pipari from the cage for when Pulla gets food, but it's a bit difficult since if that causes any hassle, he'll lose interest and forget he was hungry. But I will try to see if I get a suitable opportunity.

[teemu]

Sadly, things have taken a bit of a turn. When I said that he had eaten a bit worse than usual, it wasn't just a fluke, it was the start of a thing. Now he's eating very sporadically and badly. I'm not sure what the problem is, since it genuinely does not seem like teeth (it might be, but he's showing it in a very weird way). It's more like he makes a lot of racket and demands food and all that... but then he doesn't care about anything I offer him. The things he does want to eat have nothing to do with what would be the easiest to eat, because now he's refusing CC and soaked oats and all that, and instead wants to eat dry, hard oat cereal (it's sugar-free, it's basically just kind of small baked oat crisps, so I figured it wouldn't be any worse than just normal oats or whatever) or something else like that.

It's hard to explain. He goes through the food and seems almost disappointed. He actually inspects the CC, takes the blob and turns it around and everything, and then throws it away. And yet he's constantly making a lot of racket over... something. So I really don't know what exactly the problem is. My wife suggested that he might not know either, if there's something else going wrong with him right now as well. Right now I'm spending a lot of the day just trying to keep watch for when he seems like he wants food, and then trying to offer him whatever (and usually get rejected without any real idea why).

I'm trying to contact the vet. No matter what's going on, this needs to be seen to. It could very well be that he won't come back from that one (if it's the teeth, then they are so badly crooked now that they'd have to be handled monthly, and I don't think that's tolerable for him either, and something else will of course probably be more serious...). But right now I just need to get it sorted, because this is turning very unpleasant for both me and him.

[moletteuk]

Agree, get him to the vet. Perhaps there is obstruction to the tongue stopping him eating CC.

[hpdegus]

Sorry you and Pulla are going through this. I would ask the vet to take a good listen to Pulla's heart as well.

[winic1]

Could it be nausea? Seen often in sick cats, they want to eat, but then turn away when presented with food because it then makes them queasy.
Other thought would be loss of sense of smell, which might make identifying the foods difficult and so he doesn't know what to eat?