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Post by teemu on Nov 10, 2023 4:41:56 GMT
Hey all,
I've kept people pretty updated on Pulla's condition and situation, but I guess at this point it's clear that he has trouble keeping his weight up any more, and that his appetite is not very good or consistent. It's quite rare that I see him gnawing on things any more, and quite often he just stashes treats when offered. It's dismaying to see it happen since I can't really do anything direct about it.
He does eat, so he's not actively starving himself or avoiding food totally. Especially during the day, I almost always see him grazing on hay. It almost seems like a social activity for him and Pipari, since they tend to do it together at the same time. It's tough, dry hay, so it's not like he's avoiding eating anything hard or something like that. But then I also often see him taking a piece of nut I offer, spinning it around in his hands for a bit, putting it in his mouth, and then deciding that he just wants to stash it somewhere. Especially if the piece is larger than like a sunflower seed - and it's not rare to see him stashing even those. But it's not consistent either, and sometimes he eats with great appetite and basically as much as I give him. It's a bit similar with his pellets. I often see him eating pellet in the evening, for whatever reason. Since Pipari is with him, it's hard to gauge exactly how much is going into him, but I do think he is still eating. Just, clearly not enough if his weight is down.
His weight hasn't gone down a lot yet. During his last checkup in July, he was 215g. Now yesterday he was 193g. So He's lost about 10% body weight, but that's despite me giving him a portion of peanut butter and Science Supreme Recovery daily (for the metacam, and also because the calories can't hurt). I was feeding him the SSR before the checkup as well (it's not exactly a new issue that he's not keeping weight), so I suppose the situation has not changed dramatically. Just, I'm a bit unsure what to make of it, or if there's something else to consider.
I think the main issue is probably that his dental roots are making him less keen on eating. His teeth were outwardly fine in July's checkup, despite the fact that he was already then showing signs of mouth discomfort. The signs have not increased, but they also have not really decreased either. So I don't think there is something more acute like dental spurs going on, since everything is staying basically the same. I do plan on taking him for a new checkup at some point, and if he starts to show anything more acute or new then of course I'll bring him in. It's just that right now he's behaving like he was early on in the year, and the issue of weight slowly going down is still the same.
Outwardly he's active and interested in things, though he does tire easily and often sleeps around. It's not uncommon to see him in the wheel, and I think I see him grazing a lot more than before with Pipari. He often still demands to go out to the kitchen (I give him his medicine then, either when he asks or when he's receptive to going out for a bit), even if he basically wants to just spend 15 minutes checking everything out and then goes back home. So there really is nothing acutely alarming going on, it just seems like his general condition is gradually decreasing (or that it's similarly decreased still). Part of me wonders if there's something to be done, and part of me wonders if it's simply a question of age and an unfortunate reality of his dental situation. He is not super old for a degu yet, but these things occur at different rates, and I guess I must admit that especially when he was young, I was not very learned with them yet, so for the first two years or so his feeding and nutrition were not optimal at all, which likely has contributed to the dental roots situation.
I don't think his quality of life is terrible yet. It's just really sad to see him going through these signs of having issues. It'd be great if I could do something for him.
Weirdly, it almost seems like Pipari is copying Pulla with the food stashing. She is certainly not starving, and it looks like I may need to do something about her feeding again since she eats a lot and shares a cage with a degu who does not (it's actually very similar to Limppu and Suti in that sense, other than the lack of fighting over it). But she has also started doing this thing where she takes the treat offered, goes to the haypile and pats it in there, almost as if that is just the thing to do. I do see her eating everything later (and she would also eat whatever Pulla hides, so I have to make sure I fish those things out after him...), so it's clearly not avoidance of food. Either she feels full since they really do seem to graze together quite a lot, or she wants to copy Pulla to fit in.
(On that note Pulla is probably the most terrible food stasher in the world. His idea of hiding food is to find literally any surface in the cage that has the slightest dip, and then just drop the treat there, tap it a couple of times with his paw and waddle away very happy at how clever he is. He's only recently started to even do it in the bedding instead of just hard flooring...)
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 10, 2023 18:58:10 GMT
Sorry, I don't have anything very helpful to say. I can't remeber where you are at with metacam for him, that's about all there is that might help. It's good that Pipari is encouraging him to eat hay.
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Post by teemu on Nov 10, 2023 21:51:22 GMT
At the moment he is getting 0.05-0.1 ml per day. I alternate it, since I was advised that I should first try a low regular dosage and see how it affects his overall condition. I know the maximum dosage is a lot stronger, but it's also strong stuff, so I'm trying to find a minimum dosage that works out for him.¨
Today was suddenly a notably more active day, for whatever reason, and he was constantly looking for things to eat. Even gnawed some dandelion root. It's great to see him being more active. During those moments he seems many years younger suddenly, and I remember that he isn't actually that old yet. It also does not feel like he's actually in too much pain to be like that normally, it seems to just come naturally to him from time to time, so I have hope that he's still basically in a sustainable condition.
One thing I have noticed is that sometimes when he eats he seems to suffer a sudden gag or spasm reflex. He does not regurgitate and it's only momentary, but I'm not sure what that is about. It's not super common, but it has happened repeatedly. Basically he hunches up and pulls his chin down almost as if he felt there was something stuck in his throat. But generally speaking rodents have a very hard time with accidentally swallowing too large bites since they grind everything down into very small bits...
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Post by teemu on Nov 13, 2023 19:36:49 GMT
It's been a bit awkward lately, actually, since he isn't as interested in the peanut butter of Recovery any more, so it's not a given that he'll eat it every evening. It's clearly not the case that he's feeling ill, since I tested it with some CC and he ate all of it no problem. Just, I don't want to use it too often since it has sugary ingredients in it. I'd also rather not force him to take the syringe (I think the metacam they have here either isn't honey-flavored, or my degus just don't like it anyway, but they have never wanted to take it voluntarily), so it's a headache to find a way to get him to eat the medicine. He often just tries to stash the thing.
I might have to start seeing if he'd be more interested during some other part of the day. Could be that he simply feels full come evening.
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Post by teemu on Nov 14, 2023 20:58:49 GMT
Well, Pulla is still not very keen on eating his extra feed. But looking at it, his weight is now 200g, even (which may or may not be basically as it was then, just depending on how full he is and all), so he must basically know what he is doing. I see him eating hay, and he shows a lot more interest in pellets in the evening, so it seems like he is getting his food. He is also a lot more interested in nuts again.
I wonder what would be the best way to make sure he eats his painkillers. I don't want to force the syringe into his mouth, so mixing it into something seems kind of necessary. I wonder if it would be okay to mix it into a very small amount of CC or oats or something like that? I don't think he actually dislikes the taste, so it won't matter if it's too little to hide it. It just needs to get absorbed into something he cares about eating. I tested it today, and he ate it in a blob of CC that was the size of a large-ish pea. I don't want to stress his system with any extra sugars, so I'm wondering if an amount like that would be basically harmless, or too much?
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 15, 2023 10:30:46 GMT
I think the important thing is whether his weight stabilises. In many ways it's better if he can manage this mostly without the supplemental feeding. Maybe he gets a bit bored or sick of certain things and then doesn't want to eat those for a while, but will come back round to them.
I think if he will take the metacam in a large pea sized lump of CC/Recovery, then that is great and I wouldn't worry about the sugars, it's worth a lot to get it into him without fuss or stress for either of you and to know he has eaten it.
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Post by teemu on Nov 16, 2023 15:44:33 GMT
Some experimentation shows that he will indeed take the Metacam in literally any amount of CC, up to just a minuscule bit just barely enough to actually contain the tiny amount of painkiller. The only problem is that he's miffed there is no more! It's actually probably for the best if he takes it like that anyhow, since it's hard to monitor how much he actually gets if it's mixed to an actual feeding and he happens to leave some of it (since I can't give him more when I don't know whether he ate a part with some, all or none of the metacam). So even if it looks like he'll need/want extra feed again at some point, I'll do it like this from now on.
His appetite for nuts has gone up quite a bit. Strangely, he has lost all interest in peanut butter, but actual whole peanuts are much more appealing again. That's not a bad thing, since eating more solid stuff will be better for his teeth. I think the main reason he sometimes skips food might actually be that he doesn't seem to feel hunger very well, or forgets to eat otherwise. Often when I offer him a pellet, he will happily take it and eat some or all of it, despite the fact that there is always some available for him. In that sense it's also good that he forages together with Pipari, since then he's at least eating as a regular activity.
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 16, 2023 20:03:13 GMT
Yes, there's definitely peace of mind in giving the meds and watching them eat all of it right away.
My goos tended to perceive something being hand fed was higher value, so were more likely to eat it. They also seemed to eat more forage or hay if I topped it up regularly - they wanted the fresh new thing.
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Post by degulover21 on Nov 21, 2023 16:58:28 GMT
Sorry your having trouble with your goos weight, trust me I understand how you feel, I was always battling with hazels weight, it held for years and then this year it stopped dropping slowly. She was 167g when she passed.
Snowball had too starting struggling with weight, she never used to only since this year and last when she’s aged. Start of the year she was 197g then I started giving her cc and peanut butter few times a day she went up to 240g now I’ve cut it down she’s been dropping a little I think she’s 223-228, she’s fine in herself but she’s blind so that might be why. Maybe she struggling to see her food. I tend to give them what they want now they are nearly 8 next year
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Post by teemu on Dec 29, 2023 18:25:45 GMT
Pulla's weight has dropped again, now to around 180g. He's eating quite regularly again, both treats and pellets (he demands to be fed pellets at least three times a day, and eats more when he gets to go outside the cage), but he never eats a big amount at once. It's not because he's full, since he's always interested in more CC, but I don't want to give too much of it due to the sugars. He seems to be eating Science Supreme Recovery if I mix in sunflower seeds (he doesn't like it by itself any more), so hopefully that will help with building up some weight again...
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Post by moletteuk on Jan 2, 2024 11:49:22 GMT
You must be disappointed he is still dropping, it's worrying he is down to 180g. Do you think the metacam is helping? Could it be harming his appetite/stomach? Is it worth a dental check up now?
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Post by teemu on Jan 2, 2024 18:26:46 GMT
He's been off the metacam for a few days, since I thought about that as well and wanted to see how he'd react to not getting it (also to assess whether it's actually helping him with pains). His behavior seems very similar to how it was while he was on it, and he's been eating just fine. Right now he is furiously biting at the bars and staring at me (I think he wants to get out again), so I think that if he was suffering from dental pains earlier, it must not be affecting him at the moment at least. But now that you mention it, it could be that he has been eating pellets somewhat more (more at once, or demanding/accepting them more often), so it's definitely possible that it messed with him.
I'm thinking I should bring him in for a check in any case, since if his weight is decreasing like that, it's good to establish that nothing is off (if nothing else, they can take a look at his dental roots to see if there has been change; it has been about half a year or so since his last check, so if the situation is worsening there might be some indication of that. He does not look skinny yet, but his flanks are lean. I think it could be that the way he's always hunched up might make it hard to actually assess his body mass accurately, and he might actually be skinnier than he lets on.
He does have interest in food, which is good, but the fact that his weight has dropped means that either it's not enough, or there is something wrong otherwise.
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Post by moletteuk on Jan 2, 2024 18:58:43 GMT
I think a vet checkup would be a good idea. I wonder if gabapentin might be worth considering for Pulla at some point.
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Post by teemu on Jan 10, 2024 17:56:16 GMT
Pulla had a check today. Unfortunately, it seems that his dental arch has started becoming crooked, causing an uneven bite, which had resulted in spurs. His roots were the same as before, so they're not actively getting worse. This does mean that he will have to have checks as a more regular thing, since the uneven bite will likely make this a recurring issue.
Now that he was sedated, it's really easy to see the lost weight. His sides are thin and sunken. He keeps himself looking larger normally, but he is actually quite feeble. I hope that his weight will start going up, at least to what it was.
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Post by moletteuk on Jan 10, 2024 18:49:45 GMT
At least you know the reason for the weight loss now, so hopefully he will put some weight back on. I've never heard of a crooked arch. I hope he recovers swiftly.
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Post by teemu on Jan 10, 2024 22:46:48 GMT
Basically it means, as far as I understood it, that his molars on one side have started tilting, so the line of the teeth changes and they don't meet as flush any more with the upper/lower teeth (I'm not sure which one it was). The kind of thing people wear braces for, but unfortunately they don't make them that small...
He is still quite out of it and has done nothing but crawled between the heatpad and the floor next to it, depending on whether he feels too warm or too cold, but he did eat some moistened pellets when I offered, so at least he has an appetite.
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Post by teemu on Jan 12, 2024 7:14:46 GMT
Thankfully, the dental seems to have helped a lot, and he's been eating more often, and more at once. I'll be monitoring him to see if his weight will start going up.
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Post by winic1 on Jan 12, 2024 16:31:29 GMT
Could it be that some of this is not his teeth hurting him, but that his jaw hurts? Like, when he has to open his mouth wider for a bit of nut or a treat, like someone with TMJ (temporomandibular joint disorders). So that the problem is not just teeth or roots, it's also bothering him at the jaw joint? Perhaps biting bits off with his front teeth hurts, but once he gets something in, chewing it with his molars is not so bad? That would explain why he's easily munching on hay but not biting into treats. Maybe flat slivers of nuts and other treats, or grind his nuts and add just enough moisture to make them thick like clay, so you can "hand" him a little ball or flattened bit (like a pea flake) and he can hold it, but doesn't have to work hard at chewing it.
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Post by teemu on Jan 20, 2024 16:47:25 GMT
Yes, I think there's some general pain in his mouth. He eats way more pellets when they have been softened by soaking them for a bit. At times he eats hard pellets without issue, and he eats hay. He also always accepts dandelion root, which is really tough, almost like wood, so I think the pain is not massive. Just, it's making him picky about food. Usually he only eats hard pellets at night when he wakes up and feels hungry (I think). I'm not sure why he's more fine with them at night.
I'm a bit hesitant about how much soft food I should offer him. Since his teeth are already an issue, he should be wearing them down as much as possible. So if he gets used to mainly soft food, won't that be harmful? For now I've let him eat a lot of it (his daily food intake has probably DOUBLED, at least, after I started giving him softened pellets), as he needs more weight, but I'm worried how sustainable it is. I would hate it if he had to go to the vet basically every month to get trimmed, at that point I think his quality of life would suffer too much...
I know that rodents also wear their teeth down by grinding them together, so I'm unsure whether or not this is a real fear, but it's certainly something that's making me worry a bit. Is it enough that he eats hay (which is tough and fibrous), some amount of hard pellets, a piece of dandelion root and such during the day, does that sound sufficient? I can soak the pellets less (or more like let them dry quite a bit afterwards) so they're harder but brittler, since he seems to be fine with those, but I'm not sure if that will really do much.
Oddly, Pulla has become almost nonchalant about nuts and seeds in general. He basically ignores peanuts and only eats sunflower seeds sometimes. Some of the more exotic nuts are more appealing, but that's probably partially the novelty aspect. I do grind various nuts into the supplemental feed mixture he gets once a day, and he eats those if I season it with a bit of CC, but he's totally cooled off on things like peanut butter and the like.
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Post by moletteuk on Jan 21, 2024 11:40:44 GMT
I think this is a balancing act longer term but right now I think you are doing the right thing in prioritising getting him to eat as much as possible and get weight back on him. I would see how you get on but try and get him back over 200g and hopefully back towards 215g from last summer.
I think chewing hay probably contributes more to tooth wear than pellets, but probably depends how much fibrous material is in the pellets. If he is eating significant hay/forage then I would be less worried about the moist pellets. Once he gets more weight on I would gradually increase the percentage of dry pellets and see how much it reduces his intake. Bear in mind forage and calcium & vitamin d intake can influence tooth growth, not just how much they chew.
Maybe he's just bored of peanuts or perhaps knows he doesn't need any more of what they contain, I think it's difficult to say if they know what is good for them sometimes, but maybe the broad nutritionn of pellets feel good in his guts.
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