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Post by mpetrova on Aug 15, 2023 18:38:21 GMT
Hello, i have three boys and they are now all in different cages. A few months ago i got my newest degu - Bambi, they never started to get along with him so he is still in a different cage. My other boys Milky and Toffie on the other hand were in the same cage and they were always together, sleeping on top of each other, etc. Keep in mind Milky is the dominant one. Around three weeks ago Toffie got his leg injured, it looked like Milky bit him, cause his toe was swollen and red. I separated them and put Toffie in smaller cage, so i could treat his leg. In the meantime i let him meet Milky outside their cages everyday. Until one day I decided its time to return him to Milky and while they were outside they started fighting. I separated them and tried the next day, Toffie was no longer chirping when they were meeting and it seemed he was trying to be the new alfa 😩 This has been going on for 3 weeks and everytime they meet it escalates in a fight and even a ball. I am mixing their bedding, swapping the cages and nothing seems to work, i even removed Bambi from the room, to be sure he is not the issue. Can you please help me, cause now i have 3 separated degus and it makes me sad they are fighting when they were soo close before.. If you have a suggestion to make all three of them get along, it will be great. 🤍
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 15, 2023 19:07:57 GMT
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Post by teemu on Aug 15, 2023 19:11:31 GMT
Hello, I remember you asking about the introductions some time ago. It sounds like the situation became quite complicated. A new degu can often shake up the situation, since it will make everyone think about their own position as well. You will have to take things slowly with trying to re-introduce them together, especially since you are essentially worrying about three different introductions at the moment (all three towards everyone else). How old are your boys at the moment, both Milky and Toffie, and Bambi? If they are young (younger than 2 years), they are especially prone to these situations, since they're going through their puberty phase. It may mean that you may not see a resolution until after this has passed (but it is not impossible, so it's hard to say anything for certain). For now, you will need to keep the boys separate for longer. I know it's really sad, and lone degus can seem really miserable, but you've established by now that just putting them together to sort their things out will not make things work. Since they are injuring each other, and even prepared to kill (going into a ball situation means they are prepared to do serious damage), it will be impossible for them to get along at this time. You will need to keep them separate for a longer time, so that everyone will have a chance to calm down and let the stress of their fights dissipate. Swapping bedding and otherwise exposing them to each other's scents are important steps. How close to each other are their cages at the moment? You mentioned taking Bambi out of the room, is he still in a different room? Seeing how they react to their cages being close to each other is a good way to gauge how comfortable they are with each other at the moment. But I don't think you should do that right now yet, because they need time to calm down. Having three different degus in this situation, all estranged, is a really difficult part of this. Hopefully someone else can comment on this, but I think you should focus on getting two of them together first, and then introducing the third one into the group. It may take time to see which arrangement could work, but if they all have to worry about two others at the same time, and basically making up with everyone else at the same time, it will be really difficult for the situation to calm down. Possibly it would be best to first see (after they've had time to calm down) if Milky and Toffie could be re-introduced, and only then try to introduce Bambi to them again. Or if it looks like neither of them is at all willing to come to an agreement right now, you could then see how receptive each of them is to Bambi. But right now that is mostly a theoretical thing. What's clear is that they will have to be separated for the moment, as they've already done serious violence to each other. Basically, you should consider that you are starting everything over, and proceeding very carefully. It's hard to say how long exactly this will take, since it depends entirely on them, but this will not be resolved quickly. Have you looked at the guides to introductions we have here? Please feel free to ask if there is anything you need to know. This is a tough situation, and we'll help you manage it.
(Edit: Molette managed to reply quicker!)
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Post by mpetrova on Aug 16, 2023 1:25:09 GMT
Thank you for answering, Milky and Toffie are one and a half year old, and Bambi is around 6 months old. Yes, right now I am trying to get Milky and Toffie to get along again, cause they were already close since they were babies. I guess i should stop meeting them for a while, do you think i should continue swapping their cages? Right now their cages are next to each other and Milky is sometimes chirping. Toffie on the other hand seems more aggressive, wich is weird because he has always been the more submissive one. I think the issue is that he is trying to became the alfa now, after they were separated..I really am tired of this introduction thing, mosty because i see how they are lonely this way 😞 Also is it okay to let them roam around in the room separately and let them go around the other ones cage? Cause i do that and they don’t seem to get aggressive that way, only tail wagging and a little teeth grinding. Thanks again for the help!
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Post by teemu on Aug 16, 2023 13:05:19 GMT
My understanding is that swapping cages is not recommended, but it should be fine for them to use the same space for playtime during different times. You'll mainly want to make sure that they don't spend a lot of time harassing the others in the cages. You might also be able to use this to gauge their general mindset about each other. If and when the other introduction methods start to have an effect, they should mind each other's presence less. If it starts to look like it's making them more agitated, you could try blocking the sight to the other cages while someone is out exercising.
About the cage swapping, the main thing is that I'm not sure it accomplishes much that simply swapping used beddings and using the same sand for everyone's sand bathing wouldn't already do. The main idea of these actions is to mix their scents, gradually making them start to accept the idea that they are actually in the same pack (since in the wild pack members have the same smells). In addition, it is a much more direct and aggressive situation, where everyone might feel like someone has intruded into their home (since you can be sure that there will be fresh pee markings everywhere, their stuff has been touched and so on), and everyone visiting the different cage might suddenly feel insecure being taken into a space that is clearly someone else's. So it may end up accidentally strengthening the idea that the others are intruders and are trying to oust them. I would focus on swapping scents and gauging their reactions when someone is out playing.
You might want to clean the places where your degus move in the room most frequently between different degus going out, since they will of course mark them, and then you have everyone trying to put their own mark on top of that, which is again going to make them think a lot about who's in charge here and who's an intruder. At least mine tend to become quite aggressive and agitated when they smell that someone else has been messing around in the kitchen (where I take them to play). Some smells will inevitably remain, but this doesn't matter as much since there are already everyone's smells in the room. Mostly you want to remove big obvious pee stains after the playtime so that they won't be there to taunt the others.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 16, 2023 19:47:54 GMT
Yes, we recommend swapping substrate rather than cages. If you swap cages you can cause them to feel insecure over territory - you don't want them upset about territory as well as dominance.
I would also prevent free roam degus from getting close up to degus in cages. That may feel a bit threatening or just annoying to the caged degu, like somebody pressing their nose against your house window, and toes may get bitten.
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Post by bouncy on Aug 17, 2023 0:52:04 GMT
I second Molette - Sausage lost most of the toes on his front paws to Spidey!
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Post by mpetrova on Aug 29, 2023 7:14:48 GMT
They have been separated since i last asked the questions and yesterday i tried meeting them in neutral territory. I tried meeting them cause they seemed fine with each other through the cages and they even chirped at eachother. When i met them everything was fine in the begging and they even started grooming a bit, but after a while Toffie tried mounting Milky again and it resulted in another fight, it even shifted into a ball pretty quickly. I don’t really know what to do anymore. I think about trying to introduce one of them to Bambi, i hope i have more luck with him. 😔
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Post by teemu on Aug 29, 2023 13:49:19 GMT
I'm sorry to hear that it's not going so well. What you describe sounds like a pretty common behavior when a degu has started to slowly at least consider the idea of accepting the other. I know that it's difficult and time-consuming, but it does sound like they have made progress. It's just that this stage, where they have to meet and actually sort out things, is also sometimes a long process that takes time and requires gradual steps.
I would at least suggest letting things calm down for a bit, but not giving up on it. It may take a while before they are fine with each other again, though. But if it really seems like it's going nowhere, it is possible to consider Bambi instead for one of them. The main issue you need to consider with that is that you are essentially starting again. The way the situation is now, I don't think any option will result in a quick and easy introduction.
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Post by mpetrova on Aug 30, 2023 8:21:18 GMT
Yes, I just feel like the only way for them to be together again is if and when they decide who the alfa is. I was thinking about neutering Toffie, but I know there are risks, so Im scared. I guess i will just have to wait more. They even started sleeping in my hands and waiting for me to scratch them, i see they miss each others company.
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Post by teemu on Aug 30, 2023 10:30:51 GMT
It is sometimes a real marathon to get degus back together. Some degus do it quickly, some require a lot of time and very slow development to get them to accept each other. As you say, the issue is basically that one of them will have to submit, and especially with young and energetic boys, it can take a long time. Since they're lonely, they'll be happy to meet and groom, but then they actually have to start figuring things out and it's no longer as fun. The role of the owner here is basically to make sure that they are in the right mindset when they meet (not hating each other outright and at least open to meeting) and then to make sure that everyone is safe in case things don't work out. All the introduction methods make it basically possible to get them to this point, but it's up to them to move forward.
About the neutering, there are some conflicting opinions about how much it helps. My experience is that neutering will change a degu's personality and behavior, but it can take a long time. I have a neutered boy, and I don't think his behavior changed much or at all for at least a year. It has also not stopped him from fighting with others during introductions, but it has made him defensive, so that he does not care about dominating another male, but does not want to be dominated himself. But it's very hard to say how well all of this applies to other degus, as their personality is a big part of this.
The risks of a neutering are real, though in usual circumstances they are often considered acceptable if it's believed that there is actual benefit to the procedure. Two of my boys got neutered at the same time (one of them was the male mentioned above), and they both developed severe complications from an allergic reaction to the stitching thread used. They needed over a month of daily care before the infections finally died down, and one of the boys developed internal scarring and an abscess withing a month of this, which ultimately resulted in him having to be put down. It was never positively established that this was caused by the neutering issues, but the correlation is certainly high...
I don't want to scare you with the above. Most of the time, neuterings are minimally traumatic and the recovery is good if the procedure is done by a vet who has experience with degus. Disregarding very unfortunate incidents like this, a neutered male is usually back to normal activity within a couple of days, and the recovery period takes some weeks (during which the main things you need to do are keeping their environment very clean, watching the surgery sites for signs of infection, and administering pain medication for the first few days). When something goes wrong badly, it is an unexpected complication. But it is possible, so weighing the options carefully is important.
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Post by mpetrova on Sept 22, 2023 16:02:56 GMT
Thank you all so much for the help, I got in consideration everything that you told me and I have to say we have a big improvement. I stopped meeting them for a couple of weeks. I also bought a very big new cage, which i separated in the middle, so they could still be in the same cage but not have any contact. They started to chirp trough the bars, but when i tried to meet them outside they were still trying to fight. That’s when i decided to leave them alone for a while and one day when i heard them chirp to each other i decides to risk it and I just put Milky in Toffie’s cage. They immediately started to groom each other and chirp. They seemed so happy and completely different from when i was trying to meet them outside in neutral area. They still mounted each other but no one was resisting and after that they were grooming and cuddling again. I’ve been putting them together for 1-2 hours everyday and i hope nothing goes wrong and i can let them live together again. 🥰💕
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Post by teemu on Sept 22, 2023 18:11:18 GMT
That does sound very good. Things are on the right track, so keep at it! This stage of introductions can also take time, but the longer they get used to spending time together like that, the less likely it is that someone just suddenly freaks out. Do still keep a careful eye on them, and if things start going bad of course separate them, but right now it sounds like you are definitely over the worst problems. A bigger cage does often help noticeably. When degus feel that there is not enough space they are way more likely to start fighting, both because they can't get any space even when they don't want to see each other right now, and because they will feel like the others are a threat since resources are limited. So that was definitely a good decision  |
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