Well crap... one of my Degus was a male...

[flibbertigibbety]

Got my degus Coffee and Creamer about 5 months ago, and adore them both. They were supposed to both be female. Well, I just found out 100% for sure that Creamer is NOT a female. Notably by the sudden mounting and subsequent repeated squeaks hours afterwards. Oh, and the penis. So looks like I most likely got me a preggo coffee. This is certainly a surprise. Not sure what to do at this point. Should they be separated? they're a pair... and can't have this happen again. Do you get degus fixed? I certainly don't wanna split them up. And the degu babies that will most likely be in my near future, that's a whole other discussion. they're about the same age, but about 2 weeks apart, so they're not from the same mother, at least. So that's good. could be same father, though. 

Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated. 

[winic1]

Separate them immediately, it might be too late, but then again, it might not and the longer they are together the more likely Coffee will get pregnant. If you don't have a spare cage available, make sure that whatever you divide the current cage with is wide enough that there can be no hanky-panky through the divider. A double layer of wire mesh, with a spacer (little boards, dowels, etc) that keeps the layers of wire at least a cm apart, if not more, is good. If using two cages, keep them at least a cm or two apart, so that they can be near each other but not reach each other.

Males can be neutered, you will want to find a vet who is experienced with neutering DEGUS, not just small rodents in general. Degu testicles are internal, so it's a bit more of a skilled operation than on something like a rat where they're hanging out and easily snipped.

So, now you are on pregnancy watch. Degu gestation is 90 days, so once you are, say, 95 days past when you separate them, you can breathe easy again. There are other posts and threads telling you what to look for to detect a pregnant degu, but mostly the signs don't show up until very shortly before the female gives birth.

[flibbertigibbety]

Dec 30, 2022 21:13:56 GMT winic1 said:

Separate them immediately, it might be too late, but then again, it might not and the longer they are together the more likely Coffee will get pregnant. If you don't have a spare cage available, make sure that whatever you divide the current cage with is wide enough that there can be no hanky-panky through the divider. A double layer of wire mesh, with a spacer (little boards, dowels, etc) that keeps the layers of wire at least a cm apart, if not more, is good. If using two cages, keep them at least a cm or two apart, so that they can be near each other but not reach each other.

Males can be neutered, you will want to find a vet who is experienced with neutering DEGUS, not just small rodents in general. Degu testicles are internal, so it's a bit more of a skilled operation than on something like a rat where they're hanging out and easily snipped.

So, now you are on pregnancy watch. Degu gestation is 90 days, so once you are, say, 95 days past when you separate them, you can breathe easy again. There are other posts and threads telling you what to look for to detect a pregnant degu, but mostly the signs don't show up until very shortly before the female gives birth.

I just finished reading through the pregnancy help pinned post, and that was helpful. From what I see, and hear, it seems like she's most likely pregnant. The male won't stop squeaking (it's been at least an hour since I caught them doing the act), and the female is cleaning herself a lot down there. The cage is a double decker so separation should be easy. But I'm guessing it's too late anyways. They're not at all related, so if anything, the babies should be perfectly healthy. Finding a vet... now that will be difficult. I live in the USA... in arizona. no one's ever even heard of a degu. 

[winic1]

I'm in the USA also, North Carolina. Your best bet is to look for an exotics vet. The ones who list that they do birds and lizards and snakes and small pets (rodents). They are most likely to have someone who at least knows about degus. That's how we found a vet when we lived in Connecticut; over the phone they sounded like maybe they were stretching their animal range, but when we saw the actual vet she was young and picked him right up properly and with confidence. A year later the degu vet had changed, and was also very young, so I suspect the practice was hiring new vets/interns right out of vet school, but their information was fresh and up to date and they were confident in what they were doing.

[winic1]

Oh, and just because they've done the deed, doesn't guarantee she is pregnant, so best to separate them anyway on the chance that you are luckier than he was and she's not actually pregnant yet.

[flibbertigibbety]

Dec 30, 2022 21:40:30 GMT winic1 said:

Oh, and just because they've done the deed, doesn't guarantee she is pregnant, so best to separate them anyway on the chance that you are luckier than he was and she's not actually pregnant yet.

I'm thinking of just letting it happen. It's not like I'm gonna return either them, and I can afford what ever is needed for babies n' all that. I'm thinking this could be an interesting little adventure. Who knows. Maybe this is the start of me becoming a Degu breeder. I do love my little ones, so maybe I'll just let nature run it's course. 

[winic1]

Okay, but I would advise finding and reading deguconvert's account of their unexpected pregnancies...
And know that a litter is typically 5-8 babies, and that they have to be separated by 7 weeks of age at the latest, males from females, which can mean several VERY large cages as there's no guarantee you get an even number of males and females, and that the mom is most fertile during the first 24 hours after giving birth, so by the time you see the babies she may be pregnant with a second litter already if dad is still sharing the cage, which is very hard on a young degu mother....

Being a breeder is not something you just happen to fall into. It takes a lot of planning and preparing. Six months from now you could have 16 babies from your original pair, and a full litter of 4-8 more babies from each of the females in the first litter, if you make a single mistake (again, find and read deguconvert's story). Are you ready for something like that?

[flibbertigibbety]

Dec 30, 2022 23:44:08 GMT winic1 said:

Okay, but I would advise finding and reading deguconvert's account of their unexpected pregnancies...
And know that a litter is typically 5-8 babies, and that they have to be separated by 7 weeks of age at the latest, males from females, which can mean several VERY large cages as there's no guarantee you get an even number of males and females, and that the mom is most fertile during the first 24 hours after giving birth, so by the time you see the babies she may be pregnant with a second litter already if dad is still sharing the cage, which is very hard on a young degu mother....

Being a breeder is not something you just happen to fall into. It takes a lot of planning and preparing. Six months from now you could have 16 babies from your original pair, and a full litter of 4-8 more babies from each of the females in the first litter, if you make a single mistake (again, find and read deguconvert's story). Are you ready for something like that?

I already have a very large cage that can be moved into 2 cages (2 cages stacked atop eachother). And I can get ones that are more secure for momma and the babies. And would separate creamer when she's ready to give birth. I also found a vet that will see degus, so I'll be sure to bring them in as well. in the meantime, I'm reading more and more to get prepared. Which I should do anyway simply because, even if I wasn't 100% certain she was prego, if there's a chance she is, I would have to regardless. Even if I DID separate them in an attempt to avoid it. If she is prego, not like I have much of an alternative anyway. Might as well prepare for degubebis. and will certainly read more on here about other's experiences. I only found out today, after all. 

[moletteuk]

Well, this must have been a bit of a shock after 5 months! It certainly puts you in an awkward position. We have a policy on the forum not to encourage breeding because in some parts of the world there are an excess of degus looking to be adopted and some people tend to underestimate the risks and requirements of babies. We will certainly help you all we can to make the best of the situation, please feel free to ask any questions.

I have a couple of extra bits of information that strike me, first is that it is not recommended to neuter males below 12 months as it can interfere with their development, some vets will neuter after 6 months. You would need quite a lot of extra housing depending on how big the litter is and the split of males and females, for example our recommendations are that 4 degus need a minimum of around double your current cage, so you could easily require at least 4 times what you currently have. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/9396/forums-cage-size-recommendations This is certainly do-able since you seem to be willing and able to do cage modifications, but of course takes a lot of space in the home and uneven split of males and females could complicate things. Last thing that I can think of at the moment is that it would be really important to take Creamer out before Coffee gave birth, to avoid Coffee getting pregnant again in the fertile period immediately after giving birth, you may have seen this already in the forum info.

I think it's worth checking Coffee is definitley female, male degus can have intercourse with males or females.

[winic1]

Here, I found deguconvert's quick summary of their accidental pregnancy saga.  This quote starts part way in another discussion, but you'll get the gist of it.  It started when they got two mis-sexed pups to add to the ones they had: 

How did I deal with the population explosion? Well, first off, when I was at the pet store looking for young males, they had about 50 young pups in a deep, open topped glass terrarium. These were all supposed to be male, but every one that I picked up looked like a female to me. Now, I had only had males, had never seen the genitals of a female degu in person, and these were Vet certified as male. I figured I must be such a novice that I was wrong. Brought home the two "most male" that I could find, and the introductions went SO GOOD. I figured the older guys were so lonely they just clicked with the younger guys.
90 days in . . . we noticed that the young ones were sticking pretty close to their nest, but didn't think of it. A day or two later, my daughter was looking in the cage and trying to entice the young guys out for a visit, when a tiny little degu ran out of the nest!! MOM!!! That's when we counted the days, and realized that mating had occurred almost immediately, and THAT'S why they bonded so quickly. They had also had enough time to mate again.
My cage was a home build, and I needed to build another for the males. Which I did within about a month. At six weeks of age we separated the male pups, and took them back to the pet store, because they, and their vet, were at fault. 90 days from the first birth, two more litters were born. At six weeks we again separated the sexes and took them to the store.
BUT one tiny male had managed to escape the round up, and a couple of days later we found him hiding in one of our closets, not far from the cage. We put him in with the females and we separated an area in the old boys cage to start introductions . . . but they did NOT like him at all and I feared for his safety, so I had to do a more comprehensive separation to give appropriate spacing to all of them. He stayed with the girls for about two weeks, and when he went into his own secured space, he was just 8 weeks old.

About 90 days later . . . all of our girls . . . which we easily recognized by this time were pregnant . . . began delivering their litters . . . over 40 pups. We worked hard to find homes for them, and most of them were placed, and the remaining few we took to the SPCA, donating another cage I had built to go with them. This took a year from start to finish.
Counting the dates . . . the pup would have been about 7 weeks when he did the deed with all the girls. That was completely unexpected. We knew that females could be impregnated as early as 6 weeks of age, but we had no idea that a male pup was also capable of doing the deed. There was no information on the web that I had found or seen that revealed this fact. While we REALLY LOVED all the pups, the cost to feed them was significant, they EAT like crazy! They are also supreme escape artists with teeth they are COMPELLED to use . . . ON EVERYTHING. That is also costly. And in those numbers . . . they are very messy. My husband was SO DONE with degus by the end of that year. It is not an experience I would wish on anyone. They are such lovely animals, but caring for large numbers of them is really difficult, and it isn't fair or good for them or their owner to go through the huge challenges that come with those rapidly increasing numbers.
insert quote here

So, while degu pups are about the most adorable thing on the planet, and the prospect of pups is rather exciting, it is also a serious situation and  planning for preventing something like the above is incredibly important.

[teemu]

The first thing I'd do is to definitely sex them out, as Molette advises. Male degus (and females) can mount each other for dominance or even as... exploration, and it is not uncommon for them to vocalize afterwards. The vocalizations also have to do with dominance, not just mating, so one mounting the other and screaming afterwards is not necessarily an indication that they're making babies.

Of course, since you were supposed to have two girls, and one definitely has male bits (how closely did you see them? All degus have a cone after all, but the actual penis will be reddish/fleshy and come out during mating) we are essentially hoping for a double mistake, here. If you can take a loot at their groin area, do they basically look the same? All degus have the cone, but the difference between males and females is (this is of course explained in the guides, I'm just basically underlining the most pertinent bits here) the distance between the cone and the anus. In females, the anus is much closer to the genitals than in males. So if it looks like one of them has their junk way more tightly packed than the other (relatively, of course), then it's very likely that it's a male and a female. We'll be happy to help if you can manage to get photos of them, for example photos where you are holding them in your palm so their undersides are visible.

Given that they've spent 5 months together already, if they are different sexes, this is very likely not the first time they've done the deed, and they've just been sneakier about it earlier, so you should definitely keep a close eye on Coffee and be watchful for any sights of pregnancy. A degu pregnancy lasts for a bit under 3 months, so with an unseparated male and a female, we might be anywhere along the period. Of course, she would not be in heat if she was pregnant already, but mounting can occur for many reasons between males, females or mixed pairs, so you really can't be sure about whether or not Coffee has been pregnant for a while already. They don't generally show physical signs of pregnancy until they're quite far along, after all.

(In fact, it's possibly a bit surprising there haven't already been babies at this point, since often people find out about sexing mistakes when their girl suddenly looks like she's eaten a ping pong ball, not 5 months down the line! Hopefully it's a mixup after all.)

[deguconvert]

I want to say, please do look very carefully at my experience. It is a very common one, unfortunately, and many cases of degu matings run amok have resulted in owners and degus in deep distress. They multiply so fast!! We had a total of 11 litters in less than a year. It is extremely expensive. We spent considerably more money feeding our degus than what we spent feeding our two dogs a high quality dog food. Add to that the cost of two very large home built cages, bedding, sand, dishes, chewing wood, wheels, etc. and the degus cost us several times more than what the dogs did. Yes, you may well be glad to have pups, and nature may well have taken it's course and in 90 days or less you may have pups, which are truly lovely and adorable, but they are costly and I am still finding chewing damage several years later. This is not a lightly offered caution. The frustration of cleaning, feeding, building, and trying to successfully contain determined escape artists, is a significant burden. Finding homes for all the pups, that gets harder and harder the more pups you have to place.

[flibbertigibbety]

Jan 1, 2023 1:26:11 GMT teemu said:

The first thing I'd do is to definitely sex them out, as Molette advises. Male degus (and females) can mount each other for dominance or even as... exploration, and it is not uncommon for them to vocalize afterwards. The vocalizations also have to do with dominance, not just mating, so one mounting the other and screaming afterwards is not necessarily an indication that they're making babies.

Of course, since you were supposed to have two girls, and one definitely has male bits (how closely did you see them? All degus have a cone after all, but the actual penis will be reddish/fleshy and come out during mating) we are essentially hoping for a double mistake, here. If you can take a loot at their groin area, do they basically look the same? All degus have the cone, but the difference between males and females is (this is of course explained in the guides, I'm just basically underlining the most pertinent bits here) the distance between the cone and the anus. In females, the anus is much closer to the genitals than in males. So if it looks like one of them has their junk way more tightly packed than the other (relatively, of course), then it's very likely that it's a male and a female. We'll be happy to help if you can manage to get photos of them, for example photos where you are holding them in your palm so their undersides are visible.

Given that they've spent 5 months together already, if they are different sexes, this is very likely not the first time they've done the deed, and they've just been sneakier about it earlier, so you should definitely keep a close eye on Coffee and be watchful for any sights of pregnancy. A degu pregnancy lasts for a bit under 3 months, so with an unseparated male and a female, we might be anywhere along the period. Of course, she would not be in heat if she was pregnant already, but mounting can occur for many reasons between males, females or mixed pairs, so you really can't be sure about whether or not Coffee has been pregnant for a while already. They don't generally show physical signs of pregnancy until they're quite far along, after all.

(In fact, it's possibly a bit surprising there haven't already been babies at this point, since often people find out about sexing mistakes when their girl suddenly looks like she's eaten a ping pong ball, not 5 months down the line! Hopefully it's a mixup after all.)

The moment I saw it was not the same as their regular dominance mounting, I saw creamer was frantically spazing on coffee, and clearly saw a penis. So I don't have a doubt there. And that's my concern as well, that they've already been at it and she could have been prego for a while now. I take them out every day and they're right next to my desk (I work from home), so I usually see what they're upto, but obviously not 100% of the time. So who knows. I feel like it's most likely past any point of avoiding it. Heck, I've noticed that coffee is a bit larger than creamer more recently, and she's only 2 weeks older. So she could already be on the way. As far as a degu overpoputiion... certainly not here. No one's even heard of a degu in arizona. they're not in any pet stores. So I know some people that would be interested in them as pets. Will see where it goes, but I really do think it's past the point.  but yeah. I look at her belly every day to see if there are any sudden nipple surprises. 

[flibbertigibbety]

Jan 1, 2023 4:59:21 GMT deguconvert said:

I want to say, please do look very carefully at my experience. It is a very common one, unfortunately, and many cases of degu matings run amok have resulted in owners and degus in deep distress. They multiply so fast!! We had a total of 11 litters in less than a year. It is extremely expensive. We spent considerably more money feeding our degus than what we spent feeding our two dogs a high quality dog food. Add to that the cost of two very large home built cages, bedding, sand, dishes, chewing wood, wheels, etc. and the degus cost us several times more than what the dogs did. Yes, you may well be glad to have pups, and nature may well have taken it's course and in 90 days or less you may have pups, which are truly lovely and adorable, but they are costly and I am still finding chewing damage several years later. This is not a lightly offered caution. The frustration of cleaning, feeding, building, and trying to successfully contain determined escape artists, is a significant burden. Finding homes for all the pups, that gets harder and harder the more pups you have to place.

Yeah. I totally understand where you're coming from. I will be keeping a close eye on them (I do anyways), and will be bringing them to a vet that is familiar so I can separate them as needed. I appreciate everyone's input here. I think it's just a path that I'll have to go down, as is not as if they're going anywhere... just gotta be careful with the next steps. 

[flibbertigibbety]

Dec 31, 2022 13:42:03 GMT moletteuk said:

Well, this must have been a bit of a shock after 5 months! It certainly puts you in an awkward position. We have a policy on the forum not to encourage breeding because in some parts of the world there are an excess of degus looking to be adopted and some people tend to underestimate the risks and requirements of babies. We will certainly help you all we can to make the best of the situation, please feel free to ask any questions.

I have a couple of extra bits of information that strike me, first is that it is not recommended to neuter males below 12 months as it can interfere with their development, some vets will neuter after 6 months. You would need quite a lot of extra housing depending on how big the litter is and the split of males and females, for example our recommendations are that 4 degus need a minimum of around double your current cage, so you could easily require at least 4 times what you currently have. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/9396/forums-cage-size-recommendations This is certainly do-able since you seem to be willing and able to do cage modifications, but of course takes a lot of space in the home and uneven split of males and females could complicate things. Last thing that I can think of at the moment is that it would be really important to take Creamer out before Coffee gave birth, to avoid Coffee getting pregnant again in the fertile period immediately after giving birth, you may have seen this already in the forum info.

I think it's worth checking Coffee is definitley female, male degus can have intercourse with males or females.

It's quite a shock. I was thinking about getting another cage for them anyway, as coffee is always trying to get to thing on the other side of the bars... face pressed against them with her little arms reaching out waving around. it's cute, but also sad. So this just gives me more of a reason. And will ensure the babies can't escape while they're still little. As far as neutering, I did read the same, and that it'll be a while before I can safely have it done. So I might leave him alone for a bit, and then move the male babies with him when they're weaned. Hate to leave him alone, but won't have a choice till then. I'll also take a closer look at coffee to make sure... 

[flibbertigibbety]

This is my current cage... which can easily be separated into the upper and lower cages (since it's just 2 cages stacked with a small port between them). it measures 49x58x18 (in) or 124x147x46 (cm). All of the flat platforms combined come to about 20,000sqcm. That's also excluding the 20 or so jump platforms placed around the empty spaces of the cage. I know the guide recommended more straight platforms, but I found that they spend far more time jumping around and running up/down the ramps than they do just running in a straight line. I even redesigned it like this because they never really utilized the larger single platforms when I set them up. I marked each level with a red line. Lots of small/large wood platforms positioned so they can run up and down them from either side. obviously will need more space based on the cage size chart, based on how many babies there are and how long I have them. But this setup was not too complicated or expensive. 

[deguconvert]

I realize that avoid pregnancy at this point may be a pipe dream, but it is the potential future ones that I am more looking at. Our first was a total shock . . . because we believed the "vet certified" male that the store fiercely defended . . . until the babies proved them wrong. By the time we found the babies, both girls were already pregnant again, because the first 24-48 hours following birth are the more fertile hours for degus, and they are INTENT on doing the deed. OBSESSED!! Two more litters coming before we even knew about the first two. Then . . . a 7 old pup made all our females . . . 6 of them . . . pregnant. WHO KNEW??? Just saying . . . I was as careful as I knew how to be, and we still ended up overwhelmed.

[moletteuk]

My apologies flibbertigibbety I looked at the original dimensions at the start of your cage thread but forgot that you had laid the cages sideways, so the dimensions are totally different and the space overall is much bigger than I thought. It's also totally fine that you have arranged the space and shelves to suit your degus' behaviour

[flibbertigibbety]

So, my thoughts on when Coffee got prego was correct. She just had her babies a few days ago. 4 pups. Was expecting more, so that's a relief. We've got her in a smaller glass reptile cage with lots of bedding and her familiar plush tube where she's bein a mamma. Creamer is in their normal cage. we very briefly swap them now and then so the babies get some time with their dad. Looking into bringing him to the vet to get neutered (he's about 10 months old so will discuss with the vet). We will have to see what sex the babies are in a few weeks. I'd hope that they're female, but that's rather unlikely. So will prolly end up getting another cage and keeping the boy/s with dad and girls with mom. Will see how it plays out. Haven't taken a good pic yet since they're always in their tube. This is all I've got so far. 

[savvy]

Congratulations Coffee!

Looking forward to more photos as they grow.