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Post by teemu on Sept 14, 2022 18:25:20 GMT
This is sounding like a mouth issue of some sorts. Has she had a dental check? Not before, no. I am definitely bringing it up with the vet. Since they'll be doing a checkup anyway, looking into her mouth should be trivial. If it's that, it's at least going to be relatively easy to fix.
She didn't really want any CC. I'll try later again when she might be a bit hungrier.
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Post by savvy on Sept 14, 2022 18:45:10 GMT
Try mixing the CC with ground nuts or seeds, it may tempt her.
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 14, 2022 18:45:16 GMT
You could break some pellets into smaller pieces to see if that interests her. I don't know if you have any, but I always think a piece of dandelion root makes a good dental test.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 14, 2022 20:03:58 GMT
Degus that are ill almost seem to pour extra energy into appearing normal and healthy. That is one of the reasons why weight is such a helpful tool. Weight loss when all seems normal means something really isn't normal. Something else is going on and needs investigation. We have all been mislead and fooled by this survival skill, and really that is the whole purpose of it. It keeps them off the radar of watching predators.
I'm so glad that you are making an appointment for her to be seen. She is a truly lovely little lady.
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Post by teemu on Sept 14, 2022 20:12:49 GMT
She seems to still eat seeds very readily. Sunflower seeds just go into her mouth without any thought, and then she munches away without any issue at all. She was very reluctant to show me her front teeth, but I've never seen a degu that wants anyone poking at their mouth anyway, so who knows. From what I saw, they were normal. It's really hard to say where the actual cause is. I have noticed that she has looked a bit spooked at times, as if she's really wary and does not want to come out. It's hard to say with her, since she's a bit reclusive anyway, but she just seems more jumpy at times.
I just hope that I can get a vet appointment quickly. She's probably going to be mortified by it, but it can't be helped.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 14, 2022 23:14:49 GMT
While the incisors are the most prominent and visible of degu teeth, they are not often the ones that are causing issues in the mouth. Overgrowth of any of the molars can cause great difficulty throughout the entire mouth, because if one is overgrown, it will impact the growth the molars beside, or above or below it. Overgrowth/spur growth in the molars are not at all evident just from observing the incisors. This a mistake I made in my degu understanding in my first years of keeping degus. I was very naïve and for a time assumed that the incisors were the only teeth in the mouths of degus and all rodents . . . but was thankfully corrected. LOL! Sometimes weight loss is the strongest indication of dental issues. Of course it can indicate other issues as well. It is a very important red flag, and often means there is going to be a period of investigation and observation to be certain the root cause is discovered. The first things to eliminate are probably tooth overgrowth/spurs, infections or abscesses, and diabetes, which can cause rapid weight loss when it is aggressive. I think you are right to press for a quick appointment. Be annoyingly persistent for something quick when you call.
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Post by teemu on Sept 14, 2022 23:36:19 GMT
While the incisors are the most prominent and visible of degu teeth, they are not often the ones that are causing issues in the mouth. Overgrowth of any of the molars can cause great difficulty throughout the entire mouth, because if one is overgrown, it will impact the growth the molars beside, or above or below it. Overgrowth/spur growth in the molars are not at all evident just from observing the incisors. This a mistake I made in my degu understanding in my first years of keeping degus. I was very naïve and for a time assumed that the incisors were the only teeth in the mouths of degus and all rodents . . . but was thankfully corrected. LOL! Sometimes weight loss is the strongest indication of dental issues. Of course it can indicate other issues as well. It is a very important red flag, and often means there is going to be a period of investigation and observation to be certain the root cause is discovered. The first things to eliminate are probably tooth overgrowth/spurs, infections or abscesses, and diabetes, which can cause rapid weight loss when it is aggressive. I think you are right to press for a quick appointment. Be annoyingly persistent for something quick when you call.
Yes, I was mostly thinking that it's weird how she seems to prefer to use just her molars for eating (she sucks the seeds into her mouth and then munches them, without using the incisors at all), whereas she seemed to have an issue using her incisors to bite into the peanut earlier. It could of course also just be that the movements are different, and eating the seeds does not hurt her mouth.
But then I saw her eating hay just now, so I don't know. It's strangely incongruous.
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Post by teemu on Sept 15, 2022 11:26:38 GMT
Got her the appointment, finally. It's going to be next week, no helping that, but the vet was not overly concerned about the situation yet, since her weight has not gone down massively, she eats and is active.
Things seem to be keeping steady in any case. She's been eating a lot of stuff and the peanuts are going down well again.
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Post by teemu on Sept 19, 2022 1:46:40 GMT
Posso weighed 218g today when I measured her. A solid gain of 10g over the weekend. It was at the end of the day, though, so she had eaten more (I usually weigh her in the morning), but if that holds up until morning, then we've made some progress! I'm still going to take her to the appointment, it'll be good to have her teeth checked out since it's always a potential risk anyway, but she's looking a bit better than before the weekend.
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Post by teemu on Sept 19, 2022 15:24:57 GMT
Weight was 213g this morning, so there's definitely been some progress with her weight. Not sure what causes these dips, so it's good to get it checked out, but at least she's not thinning out again.
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Post by teemu on Sept 20, 2022 15:41:02 GMT
Got home from the appointment. Posso had tooth spurs - a lot of them, actually. Looking at the vet report, there were spurs in literally all tooth groups. The report lists "A moderate spur on upper left teeth pointing towards the cheek", "small spurs towards the tongue in lower left teeth", "small spurs towards the cheek in each of the upper right teeth" and "a moderate spur on third tooth of lower right molars, towards the tongue". So basically spurs in every group of molars, pointing every which way. No wonder that she wasn't too keen on eating! They also X-rayed her jaw, but did not really find anything. There's a note that there was "possibly slight overgrowth" in the roots, but no evidence that there would be any problems there at the time (and the growth was so minor that they were not sure if it even is a thing). The spurs likely explain all her problems.
She was pretty groggy when she got home, but they put her on metacam at the vet, so she's already running in the wheel. I put a heat pad down for her, but she took exactly one look at it before just running off. Pulla is enjoying it, though. He's obviously somewhat concerned about what happened with Posso and runs over to check on her every few minutes.
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Post by savvy on Sept 20, 2022 17:09:32 GMT
So glad you got her to the vet.
I take it they removed all the spurs? If so, her mouth may be a bit sore for a couple of days, but she should soon start eating again.
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Post by teemu on Sept 20, 2022 17:19:03 GMT
So glad you got her to the vet. I take it they removed all the spurs? If so, her mouth may be a bit sore for a couple of days, but she should soon start eating again.
Yeah, it's all filed nice and clean now. They gave her metacam and a prescription for a couple of days. I'll be monitoring how she'll eat and seeing if she needs some CC to begin with.
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Post by savvy on Sept 20, 2022 17:29:01 GMT
She'll probably need CC tonight.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 20, 2022 22:47:56 GMT
I am SOOO RELIEVED!!! She may feel kind of rough for a few days following the treatment, but she will pick up again and be eating much better again before long! I'm so very glad you had her looked at, Teemu!
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Post by teemu on Sept 21, 2022 0:27:33 GMT
Thank you! I guess this is a good practical example of why it's good to keep an eye on the weights of your pets Posso wasn't too keen to eat today, so I had to use a syringe to get some CC into her in the evening. She does not really like it, but that can't be helped right now. I'll have to see what she's like tomorrow, but this is all pretty routine at this point. I'm just glad that there was nothing seriously wrong and everything's in order again.
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Post by teemu on Sept 21, 2022 10:31:14 GMT
She's already looking a lot better today. She eats seeds when offered (A bit slowly, but that's to be expected) and seems to be alert, energetic and generally in good spirits. She has not had metacam after the visit. I'll give her some soon just in case, but she's bouncing back really well!
I actually just saw her eating hay as I was writing this. She's really scarfing it down!
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 21, 2022 14:24:22 GMT
I'm really pleased she's recovering so well, they must have done a good job of the dental work.
I'm a bit concerned that she has so many spurs at her young age. I'm sure you've figured this out already but I would keep an eye on your other degus since they are from the same source and certainly think about supplementing vitamin d and/or getting a uv light and think about calcium in the diet.
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Post by teemu on Sept 21, 2022 14:48:44 GMT
Yes, it certainly looks like there are issues here. I did consider this to be pretty alarming, given her age. Everyone else is eating well, but I'll be taking their nutrient situation under serious consideration!
It's entirely possible that they're not getting enough calcium. The seeds they get and want to eat are generally on the lower end of the calcium chart. So finding some way to increase that would be very good. I guess I could consider just using calcium powder that's meant as a pet food supplement (they've never been big on things like chalk stones, but I could just crush that in with some seed gruel and they'd likely eat it right up) and putting it in their treats.
They're also likely not getting as much vitamin d as they should. Long, dark winters and a house layout that doesn't let in nearly as much sunlight as it should. So I'll look into getting a supplement for that as well.
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 21, 2022 15:08:39 GMT
I think I'm about the only one that tried supplementing calcium, but my goos always liked dried veg so I used to apply calcium carbonate powder calculated to bring the Ca:phos ratio back to 2:1. If you look at the nutrition charts there are some figures there for applying to veg. It worked well on veg because about the right amount would stick to the veg, not sure about applying it to other things, you could probably top up the amount on pellets. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15602/vegetable-seed-nut-nutrition-chartsIf you get vit d drops, make sure there is enough info on the packet about the dose per ml to work out dosing accurately.
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