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Post by deguconvert on May 14, 2022 4:14:42 GMT
Not to say that she isn't at ease now . . . but her comfort and peace may well deepen and mellow these feelings you are currently seeing, as the months pass. She is in the adolescent/young adult stage by now I would think, and that will most definitely be impacting her.
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Post by winic1 on May 14, 2022 14:26:40 GMT
What if you try some retraining with her....if you go to her first, she gets a very low value treat. If you go to the others first, then her, she gets a very high value treat, or a bunch of treats. So maybe she learns that it's better if you pay attention to others first, the reward for her will be much better?
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Post by deguconvert on May 15, 2022 5:47:52 GMT
That is an interesting thought, Winic! I can see merit in giving it a go. If nothing else, it will illuminate if treats hold a higher value to her than her interactions with Teemu.
I am wondering if perhaps it relates to her perspective of the overall pecking order in the household. She may see herself as almost next to the top goo, which is Teemu. Teemu's wife is her competition for dominant female, whom she submits to . . . though perhaps somewhat reluctantly. The others are all beneath her, in her eyes, and to see Teemu go to them causes great outrage. Maybe?
She is most definitely a unique and interesting little character!
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Post by teemu on May 15, 2022 13:33:53 GMT
Yeah, I think the most important thing is that Pipari feels safe and loved. She could maybe be happier with others, but I think even just feeling like she has a safe home and people who won't abandon her is kind of ideal, right now. So I certainly won't try to force her to do anything. It's a good idea to try gentle rewarding, though! She certainly is a big personality. Not afraid to speak her mind at least
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Post by teemu on Jul 6, 2022 23:34:07 GMT
I've been pretty quiet lately around here, so I figured I'd update the situation... which is to say, there have not really been any updates with Pipari.
Pipari seems to just not trust any other degus at all, and she just totally shuns any idea of associating with anyone but me and my wife. But even when it comes to my wife, she really only tolerates her as long as I am around. If I vanish for any length of time, even if I just go outside, she starts to shout at my wife as if she thinks that I'm not coming back. It feels like she's very insecure and very scared of losing what she has again.
Last month, I had to be away quite long each day for a few days, and my wife reported that Pipari didn't even want to go to sleep when I wasn't there. She kept crying out and throwing tantrums. I'm a bit worried how she'll be when I have to start physically going to my university again next fall (it's been all remote due to the pandemic for the better part of two years).
Pipari does not even want to go outside the cage at all. Every time I try to show her the living room, even for a little bit, in sight of her own cage, she is absolutely horrified and seems almost traumatised by it. Likewise, she just does not want to see any other degus. She tolerates the fact that there are other degus in the same room, but just absolutely freaks out in any situation where she has to actually interact with anyone.
At this point I've essentially resolved to just keep things steady for her, and only go forward if she shows any receptiveness to any changes. She's far too volatile to have anything pushed on her, I think.
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 7, 2022 22:28:23 GMT
I wonder what memory hides in her little being that brings such great fear. I think you are right to take that course with her, Teemu. Let her go at her own pace and maybe one day, you will begin to see signs of beautiful healing.
Thank you for the update!! It's great to see a post from you!
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Post by teemu on Jul 7, 2022 23:32:03 GMT
Yes, I have hope that given time, she'll get better. The way she behaves with me shows that she can be an absolute darling as long as she doesn't feel threatened, and I think that as she grows and learns that nothing will go bad for her, she'll start opening up I think it's quite clear from the degus I've had that their early weeks and months are really crucial in shaping how they'll become, and whether they suffer traumas or other issues. All my degus have the same background, namely having to travel long distance into a pet store and being placed in with unfamiliar kids. This has invariably led to issues as they grow up. I had to separate Pulla and Munkki, and then Posso from Suti. And Pipari can't even handle other degus at this point. Clearly the insecurity causes them a lot of suffering further on in life... I've seen some studies that indicate that degus are surprisingly much like humans when it comes to formative experiences and potential trauma and developmental issues. For example, a degu that gets separated from their mother too early, even just for some hours, can become socially challenged and suffer from anxiety issues as an adult. They clearly need a secure and stable environment.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 8, 2022 10:13:44 GMT
I appreciate the update, good to hear from you. Lets hope she adapts enough to cope OK when you are back at uni, I think she will given time, especially once you get a new routine going.
It's really sad how easily so much damage can be done.
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 9, 2022 19:34:57 GMT
I agree, Teemu!!
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Post by teemu on Jul 26, 2022 22:31:40 GMT
Pipari has been becoming a bit braver. I learned that she's very fond of climbing into a long, plastic ventilation pipe that I have lying around. It's collapsible and can be twisted, so we've been training her to get outside the cage by sticking the pipe into a side hatch in the cage and letting her climb out to my lap on the floor and go back as she wants. She's very excited about it and it's made her a lot more curious about her surroundings, since she can essentially set her own pace and leave if it gets too spooky. In just a couple of weeks, she seems to be a lot more outgoing and isn't nearly as mortified when I take her out of the cage. I'm hoping that if I can get her to be comfortable outside the cage, I could maybe try to introduce her to the others again. I think a big part of her earlier aggression was that she felt too threatened outside her safe space.
Pipari has also become the heaviest and biggest of our degus. She now weighs 250 grams, even, and is very sturdily built. Everyone else is around 230 or thereabouts. She is rather impressive, honestly! I'll have to watch her treats a bit, since she's certainly not skinny any more. Not fat or anything, but she is notably robust.
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 26, 2022 23:51:15 GMT
That's really awesome, Teemu! I love the thought of her enjoying the twisty ventilation pipe, exploring it, and feeling so much more confidence as she gets to choose her coming out and going back in, as and when she desires! That's just delightful!!
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Post by teemu on Aug 29, 2022 18:26:44 GMT
Unfortunately, we had an accident today. I thought that Pipari had come along very nicely. She no longer freaks out when I put her cage close to Pulla's and Posso's, and she has become pretty comfortable about playtime outside the cage, so that she behaves pretty similarly to the others when she's outside. I thought that it might be the time to carefully see how she handles interactions with someone else, so I let her and Pulla out at the same time (or let Pipari check out the area first, then brought Pulla in.
It went well... for about five minutes. Then Pipari started to harass Pulla really hard, and Pulla started pushing back, and within just a couple of moments, Pulla had bitten Pipari and Pipari had kicked Pulla really viciously, so that there was a big clump of fur stuck to her foot.
Neither got injured, luckily. Pulla just grazed Pipari in the neck, and she just has a small red scratch there. The teeth just scraped her skin, fortunately. There's not really even any blood, just a scrape. And I'm not even sure that Pulla actually got wounded, it's more like Pipari's foot just tore off some fur (though it looks like she might have hit him in the leg pretty hard, he looks like he's limping a bit). Still, nothing serious seems to have happened. I'll of course keep a close watch on them, but luckily I broke it off as soon as they started get nasty about it...
This is really unfortunate. I'll have to give Pipari a lot more time, still, and it really seems like she's a bit of an... issue when it comes to interactions. She's liable to lash out really harshly even when she's not even aggravated, and you really can't see it beforehand. She just goes there, is fine for like a minute or two, and then suddenly freaks out totally and starts trying to injure others. It reminds me of a really troubled human youth who just can't help lashing out.
Well, no real damage done, and I do think she has at least become more functional in general. It might really be that she will not accept other degus in her space, but she seems to be having an easier time functioning in general, so I think that's still a victory.
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Post by teemu on Aug 30, 2022 23:36:29 GMT
It almost feels like Posso is somehow aware that her husband has been attacked. She already got a bit grumpy at Pipari when I took off the curtain between them some days ago, but today she was absolutely screaming at her, to the point that I decided it would be better to just block the sight line again. It's strange, but Pipari just doesn't seem to care about the neighboring cage at all any more.
She has picked up a really amazing habit, though. Whenever Posso would scream at her, she would pick up a big apple tree stick she had in her cage, and start running back and forth next to the cage bars, so the stick would bang on them and create a ruckus. It really did look rather purposeful, as if she was mocking Posso...
At the moment the situation seems pretty difficult in general. It's really just a scenario where literally no party wants any part in any introductions. All my cages now have really stable dynamics inside them, and in every cage there's at least one who goes mad instantly if anything seems like it might disturb this. It really does look like Pipari might have to just be a lone degu...
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Post by teemu on Oct 8, 2022 13:43:23 GMT
I've been observing Pipari's behavior over the last month to understand better how I could help her get more comfortable with other degus. I think that the main issue is that she is either practically blind or developmentally challenged and cannot understand space like the others.
What I mean is that outside spaces that she is very familiar with, she is almost incapable of navigating them, and freaks out very, very easily. She can see something at least, since she reacts of I move my hand around her head quietly, but she has an incredibly hard time understanding if I have, for example, changed things in the kitchen when it's her playtime. Last time when she was out, I accidentally placed her ramp on the wrong side of the chair (we have a ramp-like cat scratching pad that they use to climb onto the chair, it works really well since it has a rough surface with a lot of grip), and she seriously could not understand it. She managed to get onto the chair since the ramp was the only way up there, but after she got on, she just refused to comprehend that the ramp was not in the usual place and jumped down, multiple times, from the ramp's usual spot and was totally confused afterwards. It's as if she really did not understand that it wasn't there right now.
What this means, practically, is that she absolutely panics in a new space and is totally freaked out because she does not understand what's going on. She must recognise the space as familiar or else she cannot function at all. For example, the first times in the kitchen, she would run around incredibly confused, more or less just hitting walls and having no idea what was happening. It takes her over a week to start understanding a space at all, and way more before she's calmed down and feels comfortable moving in there. Understandably, having any other degu in that unfamiliar space with her at the same time makes her freak out and attack.
This presents a bit of an impossible equation for the way that people normally advise that introductions should be carried out. If the space is too familiar, she perceives anyone coming in as an intruder. But if the space is neutral, she does not understand what's going on and attacks the other degu as if she's fearing for her life.
All that to say, I think Pipari actually has some serious problems. They do not hinder her quality of life in a controlled environment, and I'm happy to provide that, but I think I might have to just accept the idea that she is actually, either by disability or a neurological issue, not socializable to other degus. I will keep observing and carefully testing the waters, but for now, I think I will not even seriously consider it a goal to introduce her to the others. She has proven that she's actually willing to cause real harm if the matter is forced at all, and she is just in such a tough spot that it does not feel fair to force her anyhow.
I will keep documenting Pipari's situation in general, because it genuinely feels like she might have some hard developmental issues. I don't think the blindness would be sufficient to explain her total lack of spatial awareness. She does react to people outside the cage and I have seen her observing our dog visually, by tilting her head so that an eye is pointing towards her. And I don't think that spending time alone in the pet store would explain her sheer difficulty in managing these things. It sure would not help at all, and she's obviously been traumatized, but she genuinely seems mentally challenged and in need of special care. So hopefully if I keep documenting it, it might help someone else in case they also find themselves with a difficult degu.
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 8, 2022 16:53:31 GMT
I appreciate you documenting this, it's always interesting and you never know who might come along in a similar situation and find it helpful.
I does seem a bit like catch 22 for introducing her.
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 9, 2022 19:38:57 GMT
I can't help but wonder if it has to do with the breeder that is supplying that pet store. It is very possible she was removed way to early from her mother as a pup. It is not unusual for breeders, whether they are breeders by trade or an owner with accidental pregnancies, to separate pups from the mother once they are weened. This leaves they very hampered and limited developmentally, and makes introductions to other degus very, very difficult. If there is repeated inbreeding involved in her genetic history, it will also have created physical issues that may be causing some of what you are seeing, Teemu. I know these are in ways just suppositions, but they come of many observations from different circumstances reported across the years on the forum, coupled with observations by others that have been reported in different papers etc..
I do think it sounds very much like her eyesight is seriously compromised. If there is no evidence of cataracts, then there must be something else that is affecting her sight . . . diabetes can be one of them. I have never heard anything in your other reports on Pipari that would suggest that she has diabetes, but testing her urine might be an idea.
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Post by teemu on Oct 9, 2022 20:01:46 GMT
I can't help but wonder if it has to do with the breeder that is supplying that pet store. It is very possible she was removed way to early from her mother as a pup. It is not unusual for breeders, whether they are breeders by trade or an owner with accidental pregnancies, to separate pups from the mother once they are weened. This leaves they very hampered and limited developmentally, and makes introductions to other degus very, very difficult. If there is repeated inbreeding involved in her genetic history, it will also have created physical issues that may be causing some of what you are seeing, Teemu. I know these are in ways just suppositions, but they come of many observations from different circumstances reported across the years on the forum, coupled with observations by others that have been reported in different papers etc.. I do think it sounds very much like her eyesight is seriously compromised. If there is no evidence of cataracts, then there must be something else that is affecting her sight . . . diabetes can be one of them. I have never heard anything in your other reports on Pipari that would suggest that she has diabetes, but testing her urine might be an idea.
Yes. As you might remember, I really don't have a good track record with these degus that come from Sweden. I've recently talked about how Limppu is... very strange indeed, and how they often come in forcibly integrated groups with odd ones out or something like that. I can't talk about what they're actually like since I've only seen the animals, but it really does seem like they have some serious problems...
I'm very happy that they will be getting their degus in the future from a local degu owner/breeder who actually works at the pet store (I mentioned some time back somewhere the a person there is going to start breeding degus). She seemed like she knew what she was talking about, and they will come from way closer and have a familiar person at the store.
I actually checked Pipari's eyes just a couple of days ago. No cataracts or any issues (though I did learn that degus have elliptical pupils, which was cool to realize) I could see, but I will be taking her to be checked at the vet as soon as possible for her weird groin region lumps (the vet I go to has actually been closed due to some maintenance stuff, so I haven't been able to go yet), and I'll ask them if they can possibly check that out while they're at it.
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Post by teemu on Nov 11, 2022 14:39:35 GMT
Yesterday was Pipari's first vet visit (hopefully we won't have too many of those), and her mental issues really showed. She was absolutely frozen in shock the whole time when I transported her. I actually got a bit worried that she might be having some sort of an episode. Then finally, when we got back home, as soon as I put her in the cage, she ran around screaming for like half an hour, as if all the terror and stress in her was suddenly released. She fell asleep for a good couple of hours, after which she was really, really depressed and pained for the rest of the evening. I know they did nothing intrusive to her and did not sedate her at all, but she was more puffed and huddled than Pulla (who had to be put to sleep for a dental exam and trimming), and just basically dragged herself around looking like she might die from the sheer anguish of what had happened...
Fortunately, she's much more normal today again. But obviously her behavior drew attention, because Posso got so scared about it that she spent a good while of the evening just hiding.
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 11, 2022 16:27:53 GMT
She certainly knows how to share what she's feeling!
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 11, 2022 18:43:21 GMT
A genuine Shakespearian actress!! I'm sorry it was so hard on her, Teemu. I am very glad to hear that she is much more herself again today. I kind of wonder if she feared that she was going to a different home. Her relief to be home was significant, and perhaps all the fear would have also expressed itself in the stretch of depression after the long nap? I think she is super smart, really . . . and maybe she gets all stressed because of it.
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