Need help with Degus fighting

[missjimmy]

Hi guys, first time posting so I apologize if this is all over the place.

I have had my two boy degus for around 3/4 years at this point, they are both rescues so unsure if from the same litter. For the entire time I have had them they have had zero issues and gotten along fine. However in the last few months they have started fighting more aggressively then I've ever seen. Their fights have gone from their usual boxing and mounting to chattering teeth at each other, lunging, chasing each other when one is clearly distressed. No injuries have happened so far but I caught them once with tufts of fur in each others mouths after a fight once.

I've read up on various forums and such and found that most people say its a breeding season issue, however they have not done this in any of the previous breeding seasons I have had them for.
They have four food bowls scattered around their cage, and two water bottles also spread out. Their cage is aprox 127cm tall, 85cm across and 57cm deep, separated into three levels, multiple huts (with multiple exits) and two wheels on separate levels. The only thing they don't have multiple of is a sandbath but none of the fights start near it. I say this because I doubt that its a resource issue.

Some of the forums say to interrupt when they start lunging at each other, or chasing while chattering their teeth as its a sign of fights escalating but then as I found this forum the fights page says to only interrupt when they get to the stage of rolling around and biting. I am now making a post here to ask if me interrupting their lunging fights and chattering teeth fights is making the problem worse. I have been putting them in timeouts from each other by sectioning off the cage for a few hours to let them cool down. They tend to fight like this about three times a day before going back to cuddling and playing like normal.

I have a second cage set up next to their main one, I put their old sawdust in there to keep their scent if I have to separate them for an extended period.

This probably sounds all over the place, but since they like to fight at 5am and anytime between 10am - 2pm on the regular my sleep hasn't been good and I'm beginning to worry that I'm doing everything wrong.

[savvy]

Welcome to the forum.

I'm sorry to hear about the problems you're experiencing.

To me, this sounds like a combination of issues. Firstly, we are in breeding season and it does tend to escalate any issues, secondly, I think this could also be dominance related and there has been a challenge to the alpha degus position. These happen periodically and you do have to let them get it sorted out.

It is correct that any fighting should be stopped if there are injuries or they escalate to what is known as FBOD (fur ball of death). Lumps of fur being pulled is normal during these situations, but any blood being drawn merits the altercation being stopped. It is also a good idea to separate any injuried degu until they have healed and if they do have open wounds then the sand bath must be removed to help prevent infection.

It is important to bear in mind that degus can hold a grudge for long, long time, so if they have had a disagreement it could take a while to settle.

Please feel free to ask any questions you need to, we have all been through degu arguments at some point.

PS:  giving the aggressor a time out for bad behaviour is sometimes all that's needed, BUT time out shouldn't be in a cage where they have a lot to keep them amused.  Degus are very clever and will soon work out that time outs are fun when you really want them to see the others having fun while they are in solitary for a while.

But if they are separated because of injury, they need a nice, snug hospital cage to recover.

[missjimmy]

See the other forums/sites I have been to (degutopia for example) say to step in earlier to prevent the ball of death as well as saying they don't tend to hold grudges for long as shown by them going back to grooming and cuddling very quickly after fights.

I'm just very confused with all the conflicting information and the only exotic vet nearby won't give me advice unless I bring my degus to him in person, which I'd like to avoid as being put in their case is stressful for them.

[savvy]

Degutopia sadly hasn't been updated for a very long time due to illness, so the info on there can be very out of date.

Knowing when to step in is a learning curve, if you intervene too quickly, they don't get a chance to sort of their issues, but if you leave it too late, there are injuries. If you feel a fight is getting out of hand, a quick bang on the side of their cage with the flat of your hand may be enough to stop it. But you need to establish that you are the top degu.

[missjimmy]

Okay then my final question, the main concern I currently have is leaving them alone while they resolve their issues. Thanks to lockdown I am in the room with their cage 90% of the time unless I am bathing or sleeping so I have been attempting to learn their audio queues of what kinds of fights they are currently having. What kinds of noises do they make in the ball of death? Is it silent or does it involve high pitched vocalizations?

[missjimmy]

Also if you have a link for your sources on degu behavior so I can read up on it myself? It would really put my mind at ease.

[savvy]

I'm going to have to be quick as my tablet is on its last legs and I need to charge the battery.

FBOD fighting is silent. Neither degu will make any noise because they are too busy literally trying to kill the other one. If they are being vocal, they are having an arguement. Teeth chattering is a sign of annoyance, also watch their body language, puffing up, tail wagging and circling are all signs of an impending fight and that they are getting angry.

Please read through our behaviour section deguworld.proboards.com/board/5/general-degu-behavior and also our fighting in introducing guide deguworld.proboards.com/board/28/fighting-issues-introductions which may help you.

Normal warbling is a sign of contentment, but barking is definitely a sign that a male has mated (they do like to tell the world, lol)

I'm going to charge my battery now, but will be back online, as will others, shortly.

[missjimmy]

Thank you for the reply, as for sources I meant like studies on degu behavior or things written by vets etc.
I'm sure the information from the forum came from somewhere and it'd be good to see the science behind it.

[moletteuk]

Hi Missjimmy, welcome to the forum.

Our information is based on the anecdotal evidence over many years on the forum itself, we have some longstanding moderators on the forum with years of ownership and just as importantly, years reading every thread on the forum about fighting. We also have had input from other forums and countries and try to keep open minded.

My main piece of advice, especially related to fighting is to get to know the cues of your own degus regarding fighting, be prepared to try different things as degus are so smart and so individual that standard advice may or may not work for you. Fighting gets complicated because it can depend on why they are fighting, dominance, territory, hormones and your preferences, personality and relationship with the degus can make a difference too.

FBOD is the latest point at which you should intervene. It is OK to intervene before then and there are different forms of intervention from shouting at them, water spray or blowing in face to installing a divider or removing the aggressor for x amount of time. Feel free to try any and all of these. Be guided by what you think is right for you and your degus. Intervening too soon could prolong dominance fighting but it could also prevent injury, there is no absolute right and wrong.

Depending on your relationship with them and how they view you, you can try to be 'top degu' and then shouting, blowing etc can be more fruitful, but that depends more on the degus than the human really.

Are you weighing them regularly? Have you seen any changes which could indicate a health issue that could influence dominance?

Even though timing and your description suggests that this is more likely to be hormones plus dominance, cage size can still be a factor. We recommend 12000 sqcm (1.2 sqaure metres) of running space for two degus, if you would like to check, you are probably somewhere around there depending on how many shelves are in your setup.

You are more likely to get grudges with more prolonged spells of fighting or if injury is caused. It is a good sign for now that yours go back to cuddling and normality after the fights.

Does that help a little? We try to give some basic guidelines and then try to help each person figure out what is right for them.

[missjimmy]

I am doing my best currently intervening, I'm going to get them checked out by the vets ASAP just in case of any underlying issues are causing this.

[bouncy]

Welcome!

Another thing to bear in mind, with a sudden start to fighting, is environment. Has anything started or changed within your household or in your street that coincides with the fighting? Sometimes, it can be the smallest thing, such as a change in air freshener, builders nearby, and other such things. We've had degus react to builders in the street, and a neighbour with a new dog.

My delinquents kicked off a few months ago. It came down to one of the younger brothers wanting to move up the hierarchy. The others didn't take to his challenges, and he got put back in his place. In the meantime, I was very vocal about what wasn't allowed!

[missjimmy]

Nothing has changed, my husband and I have lived her for nearly 2 years at this point with no issues from them and I've had them for around 4 years in 3 different places.

[deguconvert]

Hello, MissJimmy! Welcome to the forum!

Fighting is no fun, and it is the thing that introduced me to this forum. My boys were all under a year, though the eldest was probably about 8 months old, and the two younger would have been about 5 months when they started to fight. The length of their fighting phase was 8 months. I worked with them every day to try and get them back together and settled. There WERE injuries with mine, only two were combating, and one had bites all over him. It took a while to learn it, but it turns out the one with all the bites was the one that was initiating all the fights. AND he was the younger male. I had two cages side by side, and would keep each combatant in their own cage, while swapping the mutually accepted degu between both cages every two days so that neither was entirely without companionship and grooming etc.. In the end, I had to insist that I was top degu and NO OTHER DEGU was going to topple me off that spot. Things started to change once they actually believed me. It still took a couple of months . . . but it was a totally different game.

When you are looking for injuries, be sure to slowly brush their fur forward. That is essential in order to be able to get a clear view of their skin. Their fur is so dense that there is no other way to see or feel if there are bite marks or scratches . . . unless they are bleeding profusely.

I would like to ask if your cage has three complete levels vs three shelves, or half spans? That can make a huge difference, since the space they live in has more to do with the horizonal surfaces they stand on that the empty space above their heads. Lots of empty space, but little to stand on becomes more akin to living in a tall elevator shaft with a few chairs. I started out with a very tall cage, the base, and then two 5 inch wide shelves. The second one I bought when they were fighting was exactly the same. When they were happily reunited and settled, I merged it and put in two DIY shelves that covered the whole span. They were happier and healthier after that. A year later I built my own massive wooden cage. A LOT of us have gone through big changes in our cages as we grew in our understanding of their needs.

With the onset of fighting . . . had you moved them to a new/different location in your home? Or did you move furniture around them that may have changed their exposure to the room, or a window, or even the warmth or coolness of the area they now occupy? Are they degus that like to be immersed in what you and your husband are doing, or do they just ignore you? Any changes in food? Do you happen to know which has held dominant position between them?


Degus are MASSIVE grudge holders . . . if there was no grudge, or intent of some kind, there wouldn't be renewed fighting. Degus are social, so grooming, sharing body heat, arranging the cage, and so forth are all essential parts of their day and their well being. They will do these with regularity just like they will eat and drink frequently, but once those needs have been met, the fight will be back on.

As Moletteuk said . . . most of our fighting information is anecdotal, but it is compiled from the experiences of many very experienced owners. It is more a guideline than it is hard and rigid, because each degu has it's own personality, each group their own dynamic, and each owner has their own personality and what they feel they can tackle. All these aspects have to be worked with, so it can be rather fluid at times.