2 Boys & A Girl -- What to do?

[carissa]

I decided it's time for a new thread instead of making the other one I started the longest thread in history! Plus it's no longer about the death of a degu either. If you want to read the history of what's gone on and you've missed it, here's my old thread on the topic.

Vital Stats before I start:

• Nerys -- 1st degu, originally thought female, is male -- approx 1 - 2 years.
  
• Cuddles -- new degu, 1st owner thought female, is male -- approx 6 months & littermate to Tweety
  
• Tweety -- new degu, female -- approx 6 months & littermate to Cuddles
  
• Current cage setup
  

I checked with my local vet that I use for my cats & dog (also a holistic vet). The receptionist looked up the prices for sterilizing rodents. It's approximately $200 to get both boys neutered. And $195 to get Tweety spayed. This is a lot of money for small rodentia that only live 5 - 10 years.

Currently I only have the one setup for degus. However the owner assured me that she had two females, and I assumed mine was also a female, so I didn't accept the offer of her cage. However we are staying in touch because she was surprised to find out that she had a mixed gender pair and her children really miss the degus (she gave them up because one of the childen is developing asthma to having them around).

Would it be irresponsible of me to have Tweety produce one litter of puppies (assuming she's not already pregnant since the original owner didn't know she had a mixed pair). Then accept the second cage and keep one of Tweety's daughters to keep her company?

Would it be better, if at the steep cost of sterilization, and I'm not willing to sterilize any of them; to give the female up? My only problem here is that Tweety & Cuddles have been together since they were puppies.

Any other options?

[Aimeelou]

Wow toughy.
If your not wanting to set up another cage to house 2 females then either giving up your female or neutering your boys seems the way. If your female is pregnant, her cage mate maybe her brother, may cause problems with babys.
Its a tough one Carissa, but go with your guts intinct.

[carissa]

aimeelou said:

If your not wanting to set up another cage to house 2 females

I'd be perfectly willing to get a second cage to house the girls ... but that would assume that she is or gets pregnant and a litter of puppies has a female in it.

What I'm trying to decide right now is which of the following choices I should take...

• Give up the female and just have 2 boys.
  
• If female is pregnant, keep a daughter ... then separate girls & boys into 2 cages
  
• Let her get pregnant once, keep a daughter ... then separate girls & boys into 2 cages -- give rest to local pet store that used to sell degus
  
• Pay $200 to get 2 boys neutered
  
• Pay $200 to get 1 female spayed
  
• Be an irresponsible and let female breed herself to death (This is a possible choice, but not one that I will choose. I hate canine puppy mills. And I won't become a rodent puppy mill either.)
  

[Aimeelou]

I hate those places too, but its amazing what some people do for money, but im not gonna rant on about that now because ill get angry
Well you have 5 choices and i dont know how your gonna choose because i dont think i would be able too!
My first instinct would to get another female and keep the 2 sexes seperate, and if babys are on the cards, well so be it and sort out some homes for them. BUT the only thing is like you say, the more you think about things the more "...well what if"s arise!

[ra]

I think for now, I would separate Tweety from the two boys. Keep her cage right up against the boys so they can feel close but not breed. Since Tweety and Cuddles are 6mo old you may be lucky and find she is not pregnant. The females can become pregnant very early on but I'd read it takes 6 - 9mo for males to sexually mature. Keep your fingers crossed.

If Tweety proves to not be pregnant can you tell the two boys apart so you could breed Tweety and Nerys? Having one litter should not endanger Tweety like having multiple litters. I would recommend keeping one of her daughters as a cage mate for her.

I would hesitate to neuter Degus. It's a risky proceedure with such small mammals, however there are a couple of people on this board who have successfully neutered their Degus. I would ask them for input.

Buying another female now to cage with Tweety certainly is an option less complicated than breeding Tweety and raising a litter, but most definetly examine the said female closely yourself so you don't end up with yet another male!!

[carissa]

ra said:

If Tweety proves to not be pregnant can you tell the two boys apart so you could breed Tweety and Nerys?

Yes, it's reasonably easy to tell them apart. Cuddles (the new boy) has a tail with just a little bit of fluff at the end. Nerys has a shortened tail with no fluff, due to a cage cleaning accident at the pet store prior to me purchasing him.

Tweety has a normal degu tail.

[ra]

Oh good. You sure wouldn't want to unintentionally breed Cuddles and Tweety.

Do you want to deal with a pregnant Degu? If she's not pregnant, it would be easiest to buy another female as a cage mate for Cuddles.

I loved my unexpected brood but worried myself silly for the six weeks until I sexed and separated them. Then came the heart breaking ordeal of finding homes (only placed two sisters) and sending the boys to the pet store. I would have rather found homes for the boys but was having absolutely no luck what so ever. Couldn't bribe , black-mail anyone or even gift a couple to my closest friends. That really was harder than I would have imagined.

I would have been a basket case if I had known Mocha (originally thought to be a male I named Virgil) was pregnant. I was getting frantic thinking I'd given my boy gas & made him colicy with too much wheat grass!!!! AH NO it twas babies!!!

[carissa]

*chuckles* You accidentally got Tweety (f) & Cuddles (m) mixed up I think ...

ra said:

Do you want to deal with a pregnant Degu? If she's not pregnant, it would be easiest to buy another female as a cage mate for Cuddles.

One point with this is I don't want to think I'm getting a female again, and unexpectedly get another male. I was thinking that by allowing her to have a litter of puppies, I could play a game of Memory with the gender sexing of the pups and make sure I have a matching gender pair of degus to keep Tweety company.

ra said:

I loved my unexpected brood but worried myself silly for the six weeks until I sexed and separated them.

Might I ask for your personal experience on why you worried yourself silly for sexing the degus? Perhaps I am missing a circumstantial piece of the anecdote; however, without being rude, I do not understand the need for worrying for 6 weeks until the degus are sexed and separated.

ra said:

Then came the heart breaking ordeal of finding homes (only placed two sisters) and sending the boys to the pet store. I would have rather found homes for the boys but was having absolutely no luck what so ever. Couldn't bribe , black-mail anyone or even gift a couple to my closest friends. That really was harder than I would have imagined.

I would have been a basket case if I had known Mocha (originally thought to be a male I named Virgil) was pregnant. I was getting frantic thinking I'd given my boy gas & made him colicy with too much wheat grass!!!! AH NO it twas babies!!!

I do sympathize with your position on this one. Any degu puppies that I do not keep for myself, I would sell to my local pet store (at the appropriate age to be separated from Mom), who used to both breed and sell degus. This was the place that I first saw, handled, and fell in love with degus.

Also, for some reason in my area (Vancouver, BC metropolitan area) degus seem to be about as rare as gold dust.

[ra]

For heavens sake! I did mix up Tweety and Cuddles. With my help you'd have more Degus than you'd know what to do with!!!! So sorry.

I understand your concern about buying another female Degu only to find she is a he. I would only buy another Degu if they were easy to handle and I could for certain identify it's sex.

I'm not sure I said that right. I was worried because I didn't know anything about babies. Mocha's seemed to be out and about on their own much earlier than the books suggested they would. I worried they'd get hypothermia. I worried because I know for certain Mocha had no prenatal care / nutrition. I worried because I didn't know and still do not know if her babies were the result of inbreeding. I worried about Mocha because she had such a large litter 9 babies - 8 survived. She looked so thin and so worn out. She didn't have a mate or cage companion to help her with the babies so she was constantly scurrying about trying to get a bite to eat, a drink of water. Then I read the babies should be separated at 6wk to prevent accidental breeding. (not likely but what did I know?) I really wanted to be sure to correctly sex the babies. The first time I thought I had more girls than boys until I discovered the boys were curling up slightly when I turned them over on their backs. I carefully held the very base of their tails to straighten them out a bit and found I had 5 boys and 3 girls.

By six weeks they were large enough and looked healthy enough for me to be less worried about their health. I had my sister who's and MD double check my sex separating. I think we checked each baby three times before it was all done and said.

I had been so put out with the pet shop for allowing a very young female to become pregnant possibly by her own father and then selling her as a male because they truly did not have a clue!! When I had no luck finding homes for the boys I reluctantly decided to give them to the pet shop. I decided I didn't care if I offended the owner or not, I had done so much research into the care, feeding and handling of Degus I put together a Degu fact sheet for them. I took the boys over with a supply of their food and supplements. I had a fact sheet for each baby and some extras for them to give to new or potential Degu owners. That was the only way I could in all good conscious leave the five boys there with them.

[carissa]

Ah now I can fully understand why you were so worried about Mocha and her puppies. Did you have this forum as a support when Mocha was pregnant or did you find out about it later?

If I do decide I want to breed Nerys & Tweety, what kind of pre-natal nutrition / care do I need to go over with Tweety (provided she isn't already pregnant)?

Do female degus go through an obvious œstrus like cats do? If I did decide to breed Nerys & Tweety should I leave those two in the same cage together until I'm sure Tweety is pregnant or only when she shows signs of œstrus?

[diet otaku]

well, if i were in your situation, i'd breed nerys and tweety, just because babies are SO cute and i would imagine it would be much easier to give tweety her own daughter as a cage mate than find a new female and hope they get along. what i would do is put tweety and nerys in the same cage and cuddles in a separate cage, until tweety gives birth. then nerys and cuddles should go together for 24-48 hrs after, then you may allow nerys in with tweety to help with the babies. if she has a small litter, though, it may be safer to keep nerys separate so he can't impregnate her again.

[ra]

I do agree with diet otaku, it has been very easy keeping Tanzania (Mocha's daughter) as a cage companion for Mocha. No fights or battles other than Tanzy getting annoying and Mocha growling then holding her down and grooming her.

I was all over the internet trying to find out what to do with Mocha and her litter. I joined here in March. Mocha had her babies April 5th. I really hadn't paid all that much attention to females and babies since I had been told she was a he!! It was a real scramble trying to find out all I could asap. This site was so valuable to me. I would have been totally lost without it.

As for pre-natal care, just be sure to keep food and fresh water available to Tweety at all times. I don't know that there should be a special diet but I would give her an assortment of her favorite fresh vegetables and some wheat grass. The guinea pig biscuits with vitamin C added would probably be a good choice of treats. My concern about Mocha's pre-natal care was not knowing how or what she had been fed at the pet store before I bought her. They thought raisins were a great treat!! I also did not know the pregnant mom should not be handled during the last few weeks. Heck, there I was holding Mocha thinking "he" had bad gas when I felt the babies. I could really feel the babies moving about and the thought went through my head what if this is a female but I said no can't be! She truly was very good natured. From what I'd read, the expecting mother can get very testy.

[carissa]

Nerys seems to be claiming Tweety heheh. When I look into the cage, I usually find a degu pile in progress. Nerys seems to pile on Tweety, and Cuddles is nearby but not piled atop.

[diet otaku]

yes, a pregnant degu will probably need an extra boost of vitamin C in her diet, and some calcium supplements as well (just a little, don't want them to develop stones). lots of hay, lots of water, and she should be fine.

[carissa]

I think the degus might have solved my problem for me. I caught some "humping" action on Tweety last night, followed by a series of chirps that lasted 5 - 10 mins. The chirping part happened twice.

Does this mean for sure I will have lil degu puppies for sure? Or could this mean anything else?

[diet otaku]

the squeaks a male degu makes after mating happen about once every second or 2, and will continue for 10-20 mins even while they eat and run around. if this is what you noticed, then chances are good that one of the boys (hopefully nerys) has mated with tweety - whether or not it will result in babies will be known in about 90 days. you can head to the breeding forum for more info.

[carissa]

This is the hubby speaking.

I won't swear that it wasn't 10 to 20 minutes, but I'll just say that a degu chirping as loud as it can every second or two for even five minutes seems like an eternity.

[diet otaku]

amen to that, especially at 3:30 in the morning. =___=