Our 2 Goos have some serious problems, need help!

[sj]

Dear everybody on this very helpful forum,

we have 2 male goos that are both around 20 months old now. They have always been together and never had any problems. Until a few weeks back that is....
They share a 4 story cage with a lot of things to do and a huge running wheel, total surface area is around 17.000 sq cm2, which should be ok for 2 goos. I can handbuild something bigger in in case necessary. They also have a pretty big free run I build myself in which they can play, run, sandbath when we are home (basically every evening). 
A few weeks back, they had a bit of a rough day where they both were constantly mounting eachother with erect penises. It was all very playful with a lot of chittering. No signs of any aggression. 
However, later that day when we came back from grocery shopping, I noticed one had some blood on his front paws, and he was also acting very weird: lying down constantly and being very vocal, especially if the other (so far the dominant one) came near. Sounds that are best described as whining I think. I assumed they had some fight in all their excitement of the day and order was restored now. The paw was not that bad and his mobility was normal, so I let it be. The next days were all calm and normal again. After a few days, however, I noticed that the goo with the bloody paw had a penis prolapse with some dried blood on the tip of the penis. I work with animals at work, so I got some isoflurane and brought him under narcosis to clean the area, desinfect it and put it back. That partly worked, but the prolapse remained/came back. I decided to bring him to a vet who checked and said all was fine, but he needed some medication to reduce swelling and some antibiotics. She also strongly reccommended to seperate them as the degu with the prolapse would need to be kept in an as clean a possible surrounding (daily fresh towels) and the stress from the medication (oral drops) would require some extra rest. So that is what we did. We put him in the free run with towels and treated him there until his prolapse was fully healed (about 6 days). During the last two days I put the other goo in the free run for about 5 minutes, just to let them know they were still both there. However, on the final day they quickly got into a fur ball of death. I immediately took them apart and they had only minimal wounds (some blood in the fur). The next day I wanted to put the goo back in his cage, but they quickly started fighting again. I realized that they couldn't be together for now. 
I build a cage seperation from some cage wire I had lying around to divide the cage in two parts with a horizontal divider on one of the floors where they could interact. They spend the first day in front of the divider obsessively trying to get to eachother. This calmed down after 1 days, and I started switching them from side to side. They didn't pay any special attention to eachother and when interacting, they mostly made normal (friendly) goo sounds or both were lying next to eachother at the divide. After a few days, I put them in the completely cleaned free run. This went fine for 5-10 minutes, they groomed eachother and looked good. But they both tried to mount the other. Which they both didn't allow. After like 10 minutes, this evolved into teeth grinding, some boxing and thereafter the ball of death again. This time I was prepared and had a glove on to seperate them right away. Back to sqaure zero. 
Same procedure. This time, however, after 7 days, I had to clean the cage and thought a reintroduction in the cleaned cage might be a better approach. No succes. It went the same as last time and after 15 minutes they got into the ball of death. This time with some wounds on lips and paws and some blood stains in the fur. Again, nothing very serious and they both were fine, but back to start again. They only show aggression at the divide for about a day max and then are back to normal. 
Unfortunately, today, one of the goos created a hole through one of the floors, allowing him to get to the other goo. This happenned while we were both working at home (good thing we are not allowed to go the office these days....). We noticed the noise quickly, but by the time we got there they had both seperated themselves already and were lying as far away from eachother as possible, heavily panting and both with multiple clear wounds in neck, legs and mouth area. One had difficulty walking. They showed no interest in anything and only tried to hide away. We left the cage fully open so they could get away from eachother if needed, and let them be for a while (I tought trying to catch them would be very stressful now). After a while they both got out of the cage together and started exploring around the cage a bit. They were clearly in some pain/shock. After a while one started to try to mount the other again, which was refused. A bit of back turning and mild chasing occured for about 10 minutes (one way traffic, the previous dominant one clearly tried to regain that dominance, the other only refused). I thought this was a good sign, and the subordinate goo would finally give in. Unfortunately, after a while they started boxing, shich quickly evolved into a ball of death again. I took them in both hands and put them seperate again. I am really not sure how to proceed. 
Keeping them seperate is manageable for a while. But they both chew a lot on the cage wire to try to get to the other side (there seems to always be an object on the other side they want). They both have a running wheel, water, food and things to chew on, climb in, hide in etc.  But the surface area now is about 800 cm2 per goo, which is not big enough. Further, they need the social interaction with eachother, and I know that by tomorrow they will be lying next to eachother at the divide again. It is very sad.
Does anybody have some advice on how to proceed from here? 

[moletteuk]

Hi SJ, welcome to the forum.

The important thing right now is to let them rest and heal and calm down. You need to keep checking the wounds in case any abscesses form and monitor to make sure their other injuries heal alright.

It's probably going to take quite a bit of time to make progress from this point, so you might need to think about making some extra space for them if possible to help them settle and ease your mind so you don't feel the rush to get them back together. You may be able to add some floor space to their current cage by adding or extending the shelves.

Having them side by side is the best technique, as you have been doing. If they get agitated and obsessed through the divide it's best to blank off the divide if possible for a little while so they can't see each other. It can also help to have a double layer blocking them to increase security and so they can't nip fingers or tails. You need to take the security really seriously now becuase they could seriously harm each other or worse.

Basically you were on the right track with waiting for them to calm and then doing a meet up, but crucially the thing to do is to stop the meeting before they get mad with each other. If you get to know their body language you can learn to pick up signs of how they are feeling before any violence breaks out or escalates. The idea is you do a few minutes and then stop and try again the next day, so the point to stop would probably have been after the mutual grooming and after they failed to allow the other to mount. The mounting is crucial because one will need to submit to the other for them to get along long term. Try to end each meet on a positive note.

You are going to need to wait quite some time now before you even think of any further meets as they need to heal up and forget they hate each other.

[deguconvert]

Hi SJ, and welcome to the forum!

I ditto what Moletteuk has said. I will add to it, sometimes we need to take the role of dominant degu. A dominant degu in a colony will squash fighting among the other degus if they feel it must be stopped, or he will eject the offending degu(s) from his colony. When we take on the dominant position, we are telling them that their fighting is unacceptable. Doing this essentially means that we forcefully tell them "NO" when they are beginning to ramp up the aggression, and that may include a loud thump on the side of the cage (or a few thumps if needed). This is something that we have to be consistent about, not letting anything slip. Although . . . let your night be your own, and don't feel you have to sleep with them. They will get the message, but it takes at least a couple of weeks to get it through their very stubborn heads. I had to do this with my boys, I had three, in their first year with us. The fighting was into it's 8th month, it was really fierce and bloody, and I was tired of it. I decided I was going to be dominant, and they would have to tow the line. It wasn't until I did this that things started to improve. It did mean, that no matter where I was in the house, if a fight through the cage division broke out (usually it was LOUD whining and screaming since it was thick enough to prevent anyone, or body part, reaching through) I would STOMP into the room and shout NO!! If they didn't stop, I thumped the cage. Sometimes two or three times, if they were really involved and seeing red. All the time yelling NO! Then I would glare and tell them I expected them to get along. Sometimes all I had to do was take five steps out of the room and they would be at it all over again, and back I would come. But the first NO!!! was usually all it took to keep them quiet for a little while. The more consistent I was, the longer they would be quiet. About just over two weeks later, the two combatants were accidentally (we didn't completely recognize who was who among the three yet) were accidentally put together following a cage clean earlier that day, and were together over night. No fighting . . . but lots of submitting and love talk from the challenger to the dominant degu. From that day on, they were best of friends, all three of them.

And YES . . . I treated them like they could fully understand and were the equivalent of fighting 5 year old children. LOL! To be fair, I had an 8 year old and a 4 year old at that time, so it just kind of naturally spilled over once I had decided to be top goo. HA HA! However, it worked. And it has worked since with others that have tried it.

[deguconvert]

I do have a question, SJ.

I don't understand how dividing your cage in half would drop the surface area from 17,000 sq cm down to 800 sq cm in each half? That would imply that the surface area in the full cage is more like 1,600 sq cm total, rather than the 17,000 sq cm?

What cage do you have them in?

[bouncy]

I must admit, my first reaction to reading your post was about your cage.

Degus are very territorial, usually covering a couple of square km in the wild. Obviously, we can't replicate this at home, but it's one of the reasons why we give minimum total floor spacing as well as footprint, which allows them to feel more open and to get up to speed. The recommended sizes show the difference between basic need and happy goo space, although they'll never say no to more

Apart from stress teen years (the first approx. 18 months of hormonal change), fighting or boxing is to establish who the alpha is. You may even see this going on throughout their lives. Some of mine do the degu boxing thing every evening (girly slap, girly slap, girly slap, flying kick and repeat), even though their hierarchy is well established. However, furball of death (FBOD) fighting results in injuries and is very different. It may be that they are now squabbling because two goos on one level feels cramped and invasive to them (so territorial fighting). The only way to solve this is to make changes to their accommodation. Have a look in our cages section for examples. Please don't underestimate the space thing. When Pets At Home sold degus with the Thickets cage, we had so many people appearing on here pleading for help over fighting goos, and virtually all were solved with a change of habitat.

As the others have said, let things cool off and wounds heal. Degus can hold extreme grudges!

[sj]

Hi all!

Thanks so much for the help and suggestions!

To clarify a bit about cage size and organization: The size they have now is obviously 8000 sqcm, not 800 They had one floor that was horizontally divided, but the rest of the cage was still accessible (the top floors by one, the bottom floors by the other). The divide was rather big, spanning the whole depth of the cage, so the basically were spending most of their day at the divide, often chewing on it, which really got on our nerves as we both work from home. Yesterday I have completely reorganized the cage and now there is only a small 10 cm divide. Much better now, they now both use all floors available to them. They still spend some time at the divide, but mosty sleeping there next to eachother (not sure if that is because that is good or if they are guarding the divide).
Wounds seem to heal well, only one of the boys has a big swollen lip, but he is eating, drinking, chewing on wood etc. all fine. I gave him some meloxicam and enrofloxacin, and it already looks much better after one night. For now, we just have to be patient. At least with this cage set-up they both seems happier and there is less pressure on us to get them behaving nice to eachother.


Current cage lay-out. top floors are for one, bottom for the other.


The divide close up. On the left there is a 'hallway' for the other goo. I made it a bit tight in hight and space there, so they don't meet in 'open space.' 


Pablito Piep en Juanito Piep sleeping at the divide



Mr. Piep with his big lip after the last fight.


Happier times! They really enjoyed running together in the big wheel. 


Happier Times!


Happiest of times!

[moletteuk]

Glad you have figured out a cage arrangement that is working better for you and that they seem to be calming down and doing OK. Unfortunately I can't see the photos, I've tried using my editing privilege to follow the links direct but I can't get that to work either. Can anyone else see them?

[sj]

Hmm, maybe that has to do with the privacy settings in google photoalbums.
I made a public album now with the same pictures:

photos.app.goo.gl/vxL2gbeRKAAyBx1p6

The first 3 are how they used to be.
the fourth one is Pablito's big lip.
Than there are 3 foto's of how the cage is organized now.

[bouncy]

I love the fat lip!

Both sleeping side by side at the divide is a good thing - it means they want to be together

[deguconvert]

Getting your arms in that cage with the two central (but not big) doors, must be challenging!! I keep looking at the picture of the whole cage, but I can't find where the divide is.

[sj]

Left side, there is a gap at the first 'whole floor.' Directly under that gap there is a wooden wall build with a small 10 cm mesh divide.

[deguconvert]

OK . . . thank you!

[sj]

Some update since over 2 months have passed since.
Unfortunately, they are still seperated. We have tried several times giving short introductions for a few days in neutral terrain with me being inside and ready with gloves on. This mostly goes fine for 5-10 minutes and then I take them apart as they show the early signs of a fur ball of death coming.
Inside the cage they behave normally towards eachother most of the time. Unfortunately, they do constantly chew on the wire where they are seperated, which drives us crazy. Today I had enough and let them both out in the living room with the intention of only intervening if they really try to kill each other. After like 15 minutes, they rolled around a bit for a few seconds at a time, but no serious wounds. The next 15 minutes they spend just boxing and kicking a bit, which I though was positive as they didn't lock up and bite anymore. After 15 minutes they got tired and the fight continued in slow motion. Unfortunatly, at that point they locked up again and really tried to kill eachother. As in: once on top they kept chewing in the neck of the other. I managed to get them apart again, and they are both alive (although really tired and with blood in the fur). I will give them antibiotics and pain killers and monitor them closely. But I really do not know what to do anymore... When seperated, they look depressed, lonely and show stereotypic behavior, mostly doing what makes the most noise to grab our attention. Together, they try to kill eachother.

[bouncy]

Thanks for the update!

I'm so sorry they're still being idiots! It must be so upsetting for you especially as you're doing such a wonderful job with them.

What I'm getting from you is that they appear fine in the cage, interacting well (albeit through bars), but things kick off when they are put together outside the cage? Has ANYTHING changed in your environment, such as air freshener, noises, neighbours with builders, neighbours with new pets, different schedules? We've found that some stable groups have been disturbed by the strangest changes, such as a neighbour having a new dog, or someone in the street having building work done. I know it sounds weird, but I'm just trying to rule things out.

Two of mine in a group of four, usually inseparable, have started short instances of fighting (three instances this month). It lasts for maybe 10 seconds, but they only appear to have tufts of fur in their mouths at the end, no blood, and only when they're out of the cage running around. I don't know what has set them off, either. I'm slowly going through everything to try and work things out.

Keep doing what you're doing, and we'll keep feeding back as we think of things

[deguconvert]

Are you still willing to construct another cage?

Side by side living works better than does above and below. The degu with the higher ground is the degu that is dominant, so when you have them living in an above and below situation, that automatically causes greater agitation. Especially if the degu that was dominant is living below. Since one is challenging and the other defending, and both are very committed, backing off is out of the question. Placing them in an area that is smaller than they have when together, will also lend some tension.

From what you describe today, it could be some while before your two boys are calm enough to consider each other as companions, especially since they sound like they are quite equally matched. I read again through your original post from two months ago, and they really went after each other. I suspect that dominance is not the only issue, and that there is a really big grudge as well. They have literally been determined to tear each other's throats out. I would not rush to do any introductions for a while . . . another two to three months at least.

My boys, many years back, were separated for a full seven months, and the process from separation to peace and calm was total of eight months. I worked through the whole time to get them back together, and now, several years later . . . I would choose to let more time pass in order to see lots of calm behaviors between them over many days. I didn't wait enough. I also had two cages of the same size set side by side, with about one or two cm of air between them.



I know that degus take up a lot of room, and having two cages side by side may very well be impossible to accommodate. But . . . if you thought you could do it . . . and if it were something you could then incorporate into one large cage (depending on what you can live with and reasonably afford) it could be very helpful.

[sj]

Thanks a lot for all the help!
Unfortunately, Pablito succumbed yesterday night. After the fight he initially seemed fine, but after a while he started refusing to eat or drink and even assisted feeding with the prescribed Critical Care food from the vet he refused to swallow. After a night of trying to keep him alive, his body gave up early in the morning. He died just before his second birthday. We think he might have had an internal bleeding after the fight. We are devestated and without words, we never saw this coming.

[bouncy]

Oh, I am so sorry! You tried so hard to get things to work!

[deguconvert]

I am so truly sorry for your loss, SJ! I know this is devastating for you all. These will be difficult days.

Are you opening up the cage for your remaining boy to have full access?

[nogoos]

I am truly sorry for your loss. You tried more than "so hard" to make it work. This forum kinda requires you to try more harder to explain everything you did for your goos. Nothing is enough. when you really done everything so perfectly that there's nothing to be picked on, oh no, there's always something wrong. I don't know why people can just start asking you if you are gonna open up the area when you have just lost a loved one.......... Don't reply, i can see the next question coming. "is your goo grieving properly are you introducing new goo to him" it never ends.
You really are a patient loving caring responsible owner. I really am sorry for your loss. And i wish you and your goo all the best.

[bouncy]

Nogoos, I am truly sorry that you feel this way. We always try to offer ideas, support and suggestions, compromising where needed because we understand when people are under financial or emotional strain. We freely admit that we don't know everything and have, indeed, learnt from other members.

The advantage of a forum is that someone's post can receive many suggestions from different members. As far as possible, we try to explain why we have made that suggestion. It's then up to the poster to make the decision that is most appropriate for their situation, but hopefully from a more informed viewpoint.

If you feel you have been wronged in some way, please feel free to discuss it with me via personal message.