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Post by safcamy on May 31, 2019 9:28:42 GMT
Long story short, we have 2 adult degus about 3 years old and wanted to get another couple of degus to introduce young. Ended up getting 3 young degus -about 3 - 4 months old. Now we think the 3 younger ones are going through puberty and there has been a divide in their group. Two of them had a serious fight which drew some blood and we had to seperate them. We tried separating them for an hour but they still didnt get on after that, then a day with cages side by side and they still were fighting when we put them back together. Has anyone else had to seperate their young degus and how long did it take to reintroduce when they are going through puberty? There is a clear size difference between the 2 fighting, and we have tried rotating which one comes out as the 3rd degu gets on with both of them. I know introductions can take a long time so really dont want to separate them for so long that they need reintroducing. Any help from someone who has gone through the same is much appreciated.
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Post by savvy on May 31, 2019 13:53:38 GMT
Welcome to the forum and I'm sorry to read about the problems you're having.
As there is a size difference it's possible they are different ages and the bigger one is in puberty. I know this may sound like a silly question, but have you checked they are all the same sex? I have come across fighting at such a young age before and it turned out there was a lone female in what was supposed to be an all male group.
It is also possible that as a new group they have started to fight over whose in charge of the new territory.
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Post by deguconvert on May 31, 2019 14:34:55 GMT
Hello Safcamy! Welcome to the forum! It is lovely to meet you.
I feel like I need a little more information.
Can you tell us what the dimensions of your cages are, and how many complete levels are in each one? Also, do you know how to identify male and female sexes in degus? What are the sexes of your three year old degus?
Can you tell us if the three you got were from a pet store? Lots of stores do not maintain the family groups as they were when brought in, but just put them all together in one larger grouping. The three you have may not be related, or if they are, they could be from different litters. How great is the size difference?
The young three, are you saying they are about 3-4 months of age now? How long have you had them?
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Post by safcamy on May 31, 2019 17:38:18 GMT
Welcome to the forum and I'm sorry to read about the problems you're having. As there is a size difference it's possible they are different ages and the bigger one is in puberty. I know this may sound like a silly question, but have you checked they are all the same sex? I have come across fighting at such a young age before and it turned out there was a lone female in what was supposed to be an all male group. It is also possible that as a new group they have started to fight over whose in charge of the new territory. Thank you for your response. When we got them the store said they were all the same age, however you can see the difference in size when they used to cuddle up together. 2 of them are slightly bigger but its 1 of bigger ones and the smaller one that we think are fighting for dominance- unfortunely the smaller one came off worse in the fight. We have double checked that they are all female, as that was a concern when we got them but they are look the same.
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Post by safcamy on May 31, 2019 17:49:54 GMT
Hello Safcamy! Welcome to the forum! It is lovely to meet you. I feel like I need a little more information. Can you tell us what the dimensions of your cages are, and how many complete levels are in each one? Also, do you know how to identify male and female sexes in degus? What are the sexes of your three year old degus? Can you tell us if the three you got were from a pet store? Lots of stores do not maintain the family groups as they were when brought in, but just put them all together in one larger grouping. The three you have may not be related, or if they are, they could be from different litters. How great is the size difference? The young three, are you saying they are about 3-4 months of age now? How long have you had them? Thank you for your response. Their first cage was 64 x 43.5 x 93.5 cm - however this was always temporary for them and now they have a W70.2 x D70.2 x H165cm cage - it has 2 levels and a shelf on each one with different platforms dotted around. The 3 year old degus are both female, they were from the rspca and are sisters. But the new 3 were from a pet shop, the said they had a group of 4 that all came in from their suppliers - 1 got homed separately beforehand. The size difference is noticeable when they would all cuddle up but in reality there isnt much in it, she is just slightly smaller. We got them in April, so had them almost 2 months and the pet shop told us they were born in January so should be coming up 5 months old based on that.
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Post by deguconvert on May 31, 2019 19:34:05 GMT
OK . . . they are definitely in the right age range to be feeling the flush of hormones and the resulting urge to be dominant. Usually there are two that are the most heated in a group of three, so this is not unusual. There is not a lot of difference between male and female when it comes to dominance. Females tend to go through it with a bit less aggression, but there are those that have a stronger drive and will fight with just as much ferocity as the males Have you read through our fighting and introductions board where we have guides about this? deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17619/deguconverts-detailed-introductions-fighting-guidedeguworld.proboards.com/thread/17618/introductions-fighting-quick-guideCage size is a very critical component to the stability and balance of a degu group/colony. We have a chart that lists our cage size recommendations, which we use based on the number of degus together, along with a certain amount of surface area per degu. Here it is . . . deguworld.proboards.com/thread/9396/forums-cage-size-recommendations . Our guide has a minimum for three degus set at 15,000 sq cm of surface space. The complete levels in your cage total 9856 sq. cm, are the shelves a full half of the full levels, or more long and narrow? (The small ledge like platforms are too small to be of the same value and are not counted.) Now . . . if you are not adverse to some DYI, and if you have the space to accommodate the suggestion I am about to make, AND IF there is a way to make it work . . . you could take the cage you have right now and flip it on it's side. You could DIY some shelves that would encompass the full depth and length of the cage on it's side; one to be the bottom/base floor, and the second to be an upper floor. This would give a depth of 70.2 cm and then a width of 165 cm, with at least 30 cm height for each level. If you have a wheel to accommodate, you could set the second level a bit higher to fit the wheel in. With two complete floors to take advantage of, your degus would have approximately 23,000 cm total surface area to live on, and would love the great increase in space. However, this does depend on what you feel up to taking on, the space you have in your home for such a thing, whether or not the cage will lend itself to such a change, and potentially your finances. If you can post photos of your cage, we can offer ideas if you are interested in making the cage you have work much better for your degus needs. To post photos, you need to use a hosting site, as we do not have the storage space needed to host photos ourselves. I cannot guarantee that extra space will remove all aggression, but I can assure you that at the very least it will help to reduce it. Degus have it in their dna to challenge for the dominant position, so those challenges will be made regardless, but they become more violent in smaller spaces, especially when there is instinct kicking in that tells the degus that in an habitat of limited space, there are surely also limited resources to survive on. Which means they are trying to evict a member or members, so that those that remain can be stronger and healthier. In the case of living in a cage, there is no where the degu that has been singled out to be evicted can go, and this can result in death.
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Post by safcamy on May 31, 2019 20:08:15 GMT
These are pictures of the cage from 2 different angles. ibb.co/0h40SnWibb.co/X7ytVC4However im not sure we have the space to put the cage on its side but i am now thinking that the temporary cage (which we knew) was too small for too long (they were in an even smaller one before we got them!) I have seen in the information you linked that separating them for up to a week may help, i think that time frame may be our next step.
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Post by winic1 on May 31, 2019 21:49:19 GMT
ooooh, since your cage is a 1/4 round, including the two partial shelves you probably have only 10,000 sq.cm at the most, which is not enough space for even 2 degus, let alone 3. If you could make the partial levels into full levels, that would give you nearly 16,000 sq.cm, which would fall within the minimal area for 3 degus.
Adding more huts and hides, small boxes and other places to let them be separate and not always in each other's sight would help, too. Degus are ground squirrels, like chipmunks, not tree squirrels, so having more ground space and places to explore and hide are more important than climbing type items.
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Post by deguconvert on Jun 1, 2019 7:27:49 GMT
Oh . . . yeah . . . putting that cage on it's side would not be a solution at all. I was imagining something more in the rectangular shape. It is a very pretty cage, but it's really quite limited.
As for the week apart, that is something that can work very well with older degus, but will not help with overcoming hormones, which will rage for months yet to come. Do you still have the first cage you started out with?
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Post by winic1 on Jun 2, 2019 11:46:04 GMT
Actually, aside from the physical problems of getting that cage on its side, that could work to an advantage. The floor space of the bottom, at 70 x 165 cm, would be 11550 sq cm. A shelf halfway up the height at 35cm up, would be 35 x 165 cm, adding 5775 sq cm for a total of 17325 sq cm. But that would create massive, long, floor spaces with good height for adding in smaller shelves and huts and climbs and things. If the main shelf was put a little lower, at 30cm up, then that shelf would be 40cm x 165cm for 6600sq cm, totaling 18150 sq cm., but then you could split the top space, as it would be 40 cm high, with another shelf at 20 cm up, which would be 20 x 165 for another 3300 sq cm, bringing the total to 21,450 sq cm, which is much much better. And, because of the round shape forming the front/top of the cage on its side, the levels would not be so "boxed in", and would have good lighting and an open air feeling.
Now I realize there are many problems in putting such a big, heavy cage on its side, and doorway access would also have to be considered especially when thinking about access for cleaning. But aside from the fun of doing the math (yes, I'm weird that way), it's a way of looking at options to work with what you have to get the most space out of it.
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Post by winic1 on Jun 2, 2019 12:19:38 GMT
Also, when we first got degus the cage we had was way too small, but they did okay in it as I rigged up as many extra shelves and platforms and boxes to hide and play in as possible. They had come from much worse conditions--the first one we got was offered for free from a local pet store where they had it in a 5 gallon (20 liter) fish tank with nothing but a food bowl, a water bottle, and a wire-rung hamster wheel, and a smattering of hay (he was the only male offspring from one of the employee's degus). The poor thing could barely walk around these items, and had no hut or hide whatsoever, and they gave him to us with his "home". We had to order in a companion as there were no degus to be found around us, when the pet store called me to say he was there, I went to pick him up and they had him closed inside a 15 x 20 cm cardboard shipping box (no holes, just the folded together top), where he had been for hours, as they were afraid of him and didn't even dare look inside. So, their first cage was too small, but the best we knew at the time. Then we got the huge double critter nation cage, and while they loved the space, at first there was a lot of fighting as they established their territories. Same thing happened when in later years we took in 3 brothers from a rescue where they had also been kept in far too small quarters. Given so much space, the urge to claim territories led to fighting.
Frustrated by the sometimes vicious fighting, I started intervening by using a water squirt bottle to break up the fights, while also growling/shouting NO! as I squirted. As they would immediately run for cover, but then keep trying to get back at the other, I'd stay there and squirt at anyone who tried to come out and get back to fighting, often just spraying the space in front of them, until they gave up and went elsewhere in the cage, sort of a "You shall not cross this space" declaration by me and the squirt bottle. I became Top Degu of my cage. I was the boss. And it helped, a lot. Got to the point, after a while, where I could just give my loud growling NO! from anywhere in the room, and they'd run for cover and stop fighting.
Now, spraying a degu with water is not something to be done lightly. I wasn't misting, I was shooting with a stream of water and really getting them with it. We keep our house warm, so I knew they wouldn't get chilled before they managed to dry out. And you also have to consider what is inside the cage that is getting soaked, as well. We kept our cage to natural items of wood and stone, no fabric, and woodchip substrate, so it would dry out okay. If you end up spraying and soaking cloth, you would then need to deal with that so they didn't end up sleeping on a wet floor or soggy hammock.
Also, having at least two of everything, and three of the important things--three food bowls (in separate places, too far apart for someone to try to claim more than one), water bottles, huts, hides, hammocks, hay piles, toys, etc. Imagine having 3 small children in one room, and only one of each item in the room--one plate of food, one drinking cup, one table, one chair, one ball, one truck, one doll, one book, one playhouse, one game, etc. No matter how big that room is, what's going to happen if 3 little kids have only ONE of each thing?
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Post by safcamy on Jun 2, 2019 17:26:55 GMT
Hi winic1. Thank you for your advice, the description of the cage your degu was in at the pet shop is very similar to what our 3 were in when they were in the shop (except they didnt even have a wheel!) We will defintely be getting some more hideouts for them to go in the cage and the idea of being 'top degu' is something we had thought out. Really appreciate you sharing what you did in a similar situation.
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