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Post by bouncy on Mar 19, 2019 4:22:52 GMT
And we all love little Riley!
Given it may take time for the drops to have an effect, how much of an improvement are you looking for within the week? Less growth?
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Post by morton235 on Mar 23, 2019 13:06:37 GMT
Just her being able to eat by herself would be enough for the time being, I know her tooth growth will take longer to properly monitor but it's this initial week we need to get through. At the minute her activity levels are brilliant - she's as bright and bouncy as ever, but she still won't eat by herself. She's downing the recovery something rotten, I stopped her AM feeds just to try and encourage her to eat but she hasn't. Without the AM feeds her weight is dropping She still sometimes squeaks when she is feeding from the syringe, although not as often as she did before. I've started waiting until she chomps the syringe a few times before pushing food through to get her to put pressure on her teeth, and she does with seemingly no problem, but still she's not touching her nuggs. I don't know whether to go back to AM feeds as well as PM because if I do she won't have a reason to touch her food anyway, but if I don't I'm worried about her weight. She got up to 154 when I decided to stop the AM feeds, next day dropped to 148 but I persevered and the day after she was on 151 so must have eaten somewhere as she didn't take her usual amount of recovery the day before. But over the past two days she's lost chunks - 142 yesterday and 136 this morning She's had smashed up nuggs in there to give her smaller pieces, and today I'm going to offer softened nuggs as well and see if they make a difference. Don't really know what else I can try I'm so happy with her activity levels, she's practially bombing around the place, but I doubt Andrew will be happy if she's not eating by herself and her squeaking - although reduced - is really upsetting. I don't think her other upper incisor has grown through yet, which is weird. I think that's what's causing the problem but heck knows how we'd fix it
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 23, 2019 17:55:42 GMT
Will she eat cc if it is on a spoon? If she is in full control of approaching and taking it in without you pushing it out of the syringe? If it was available like that, would she eat it all or would Goo also eat it and Riley come out lacking? Does Mr. Goo need it as well?
I'm wondering if you were to offer a kind of graduated food with slowing increasing amounts of nuggets and maybe soften forage mixed in with the cc if that would help to push her toward her regular food sources.
I keep thinking about the tooth that came out and still hasn't grown back . . . do you have any idea if there is a hole . . . just kind of vacant . . . where the tooth would normally protrude through? Or have her gums begun to grow over it? Is there any sign of infection in there? I can't help but wonder if there is the potential that the tooth will not grow back, how would that effect the stability of her skull, knowing that the roots of the incisors look as though they are the main source of stability for that area when looking at X-Rays? And then I think about the wonderful ways a body can heal itself and how things that seem impossible to us, are somehow overcome if given enough time. Would her body fill in the area with bone of a sort? Would calcium powders used for reptiles be of any benefit to Riley?
These are things I've been thinking and wondering . . . are they good thoughts? Worth discussion or really not?
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 23, 2019 19:23:45 GMT
If you want to give her a bit longer I think I would restart the AM feeds for a few days, even if it's just to allow you to stop them again in another week or however long to see if there is an improvement. I wonder if the nuggets would grind up enough that you could gradually mix more in with the CC, I'm not sure how badly it might affect the flow in the syringe, but might be worth a try. If she will eat mush off a spoon you could try other concoctions that include nuggets.
It depends if the whole tooth right to the root fell out, if it did then it's got to grow something like 15mm(?) to even reach the surface, so that would probably take at least two weeks. Flossie had a split incisor for a long time and if that broke below the surface and fell out it would take a week or so to show again and I'm assuming hers didn't break way way down.
It is possible to use calcium powder, I have used it quite a lot to bring the calcium level up in favourite things with low calcium levels, I worked out weights and quantities. The vitamin d supplement will compensate for any slightly low calcium, it's probably not ideal to introduce both at once. I think it's more a case of seeing what happens with the incisors and if she will be able to eat for herself any time soon. Just let me know if you want to know about the calcium, there is some information in the nutrition charts.
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Post by bouncy on Mar 24, 2019 9:10:17 GMT
Come on Riley!
I think I would also offer cc in a dish at this stage - it may be that she's gotten hooked on you, rather than the cc itself.
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Post by morton235 on Mar 25, 2019 10:12:41 GMT
Hey guys, sorry for the slow reply. I've been meaning to for a few days now but couldn't really face this thread. Yesterday my husband and I had the talk on what to do with Riley's body should the worst happen - that's how low things were. It's been a really, really grim few days in the Riley department. But last night I caught her chomping on some dry food, and I was so, so happy with her! But her weight is still dropping, she's 130 now and looks horrific. I had a bowl of CC in there with her last night and it doesn't look like it's been touched other than what Goo ate. So I'm going back to AM feeds, too. I'm going to mix in some finely ground nuggs like suggested and see if that helps turn her on to them. The interesting thing is that she didn't touch the softened nuggets, but went straight to the dry last night. I wonder if the gummy form of the softened nuggs gets clogged where her tooth should be? With feeding from a spoon, she tries, but it looks more like her bottom teeth get in the way (they're pretty long now). From the syringe she feeds really well and eagerly. Incisor wise, it snapped pretty far up. I have a photo of the teeth, so I'll upload it to her album. One is much longer than the other, which I'm assuming is the one that was wobbly and fell out. I've been wondering if there is possible damage to the root as well though. She's still showing the odd signs of pain with her mouth, but it's lessening, and I wonder if it could be due to gum growing over where the tooth is trying to come through - given how quickly degus heal, I imagine she doesn't have much of a hole left for it to come through anymore. Trying to get a look is impossible - I'll be needing Andrews help with that. That girl is slippery as a fish! Yesterday I was certain she wouldn't be coming home with us tomorrow, but now I'm hopeful. Even with her shocking weight, with her energy being what it is and her showing she can physically eat the nuggets, it gives me something to work with. Her bottom teeth are quite long, so I'm going to pitch to Andrew that we trim them, check where her tooth is missing to make sure there's no infection, and give her more time. I know it's putting her through even more sedations, but I want to see if this tooth regrowing along with the vits and the UV will actually help things. With ordering and delivery times, she's had those for less than a week, which isn't enough time to accurately see if they're working or not. In another note, one of her bottom incisors is now white, which is another concern. I'm hoping that the vit drops will help with that, or is it something I need to tackle in a different way? What causes the whiteness? Her teeth were yellow when she arrived with us, is it something dietary that I've not provided? Edit: Link to album with teeth photo in: photos.app.goo.gl/TCs5MTKd9rR7C8nDA
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Post by bouncy on Mar 25, 2019 12:19:51 GMT
Miscoloured teeth are either down to damage or something in their diet. I can't remember for the life of me what, though!
I know it's tricky because she's wriggly, but is there any chance that Andrew could help you to clip the incisors yourself, as that's the most regular treatment at the moment? Just trying to think outside the box.
If you can stand to do it, I'd just keep feeding her the cc. She's obviously loving the you-time she gets from it, as well as the sustenance, and she could be very soothing in times of stress. I'm dying to see my lot tomorrow!
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 25, 2019 16:41:37 GMT
The photo link doesn't work for me, says it's not found.
I think that while you are waiting to see what develops with the use of the vitamins, giving her cc with a syringe is best for her and you. That way you know she is getting calories, keeping her gut healthy and working, and all those nutrients will be working from the inside to help her with healing.
It had been my understanding that it is the reaction of the chlorophyll with the saliva in the mouth . . . but it turns out it is due to the presence of iron in their teeth. So iron in the minerals is important, which makes me wonder if there are dental minerals, or supplemental minerals in liquid form (with iron) that would be helpful to her as well.
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 25, 2019 16:56:58 GMT
The following things are known to be full of iron. Spinach Pistachios Licorice root (I have NO idea if it is safe for degus, but maybe in tiny amounts? Like a root cut into tiny rounds for her to nibble on if she were interested? Thoughts?) Beans (which I know have to be very limited as well . . . but, one cup (198 grams) of cooked lentils provides 37% of the RDI for iron. Legumes are also high in folate, magnesium, potassium and fiber . . . maybe tiny amounts of lentil in with the cc? Although I also just read that Vit. C is important to help with the absorption of iron. But you are giving her liquid multi vitamins so there should be Vit C in that, right?).
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Post by bouncy on Mar 25, 2019 18:11:25 GMT
Liquorice root is very sweet, and elevates blood pressure.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 25, 2019 22:50:57 GMT
One white tooth generally indicates damage to the tooth, if it's a diet issue they would normally all be affected. Pale teeth is indeed related to iron and mineral deficiency. Forage and oil seeds are chock full of a variety of minerals, so there shouldn't be a need for minerals beyond that, plus they are also in nuggets and CC. If you wanted extra iron from a bean type source then mung beans or moth beans (even smaller, my lot loved them) would be the most appropriate, but they are high in protein.
Good luck tomorrow.
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 26, 2019 5:35:33 GMT
Thanks guys! No licorice root and no additional supplements.
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Post by misscatafer on Mar 26, 2019 13:19:44 GMT
Boo has returned from the vets a couple of times with a lighter tooth after dental work - I think it is trauma from where the teeth get accidentally knocked or damaged during the procedure. It usually rectifies itself over a couple of weeks I have found.
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Post by morton235 on Mar 26, 2019 20:21:18 GMT
Thanks guys - I'm hoping that with the vit drops her white tooth may sort itself out, but tbh a damaged tooth makes more sense. Considering her upper ones snapped/were wobbly, it'd track. Hopefully it'll sort itself out over time. It was a mixed result at the vets today. Riley is back home with us, but only for another week. Initially, Andrew was pleased with her progress as he'd had a look and her top tooth has in fact come through. Her bottom incisors needed clipping though and whilst she was under he checked her molars. The spur on her molar that he clipped the same time she had her last dental is back with a vengeance and is growing on an angle, and will need constant work. The only two options left for us are molar removal, or euthanasia Andrew was very open and honest and didn't hide the fact that the extraction, though not impossible, will be extremely tricky and likely to have complications, and said that every time he puts Riley under he's scared that she will die. Although she's a d**n good fighter, she's not exactly a vision of health. He said that due to the space he'd have to work with, he wouldn't be able to extract it from inside the mouth, but would need to go through her jaw and push it up and out. Whether this would work or not would depend on the angle of the root. So we decided that in a weeks time we will take Riley in to be x-rayed to see what angle the tooth/root is at and how likely it is for this surgery to be a success. If it looks like it will be near impossible, Riley won't be brought round from the x-ray anesthetic It's a horrible choice, but it's the best one we have. She won't have a good quality of life if this molar stays where it is, it's growing incredibly fast and with the angle she will need very regular molar burrs and I just can't keep putting her through that as often as she'd need them. At least if we do the x-rays we can find out whether it would work or not. At least now we know the problem, we've identified the tooth/root that's causing it and we have a plan. I just hope the x-ray brings good news.
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Post by bouncy on Mar 26, 2019 21:28:12 GMT
I'm still pulling for little Riley, she (and her gooman) are an inspiration! Fingers crossed!
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 26, 2019 21:56:23 GMT
Hoping, hoping, and hoping with you!!
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Post by yasmin on Mar 27, 2019 1:11:45 GMT
Wishing you and Riley the best possible news.
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Post by ntg on Mar 27, 2019 8:07:16 GMT
Fingers crossed for little Riley!
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 29, 2019 10:30:01 GMT
I have everything crossed for Riley.
I don't want to sway you and any time the vet gives you two options then both will be valid and acceptable options. I'm aware that sometimes our conscience forces us down the path of 'doing everything possible', so I just wanted to balance that a little bit by saying I don't think I would do the surgery if it involves going through the jaw, mainly because of the extent of her dental issues overall and this only addressing one tooth. I hope I haven't overstepped, feel free to ignore me, she's your degu, you know best, and I hope the xrays will make it clear either way.
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Post by bouncy on Mar 29, 2019 14:45:31 GMT
I have everything crossed for Riley. I don't want to sway you and any time the vet gives you two options then both will be valid and acceptable options. I'm aware that sometimes our conscience forces us down the path of 'doing everything possible', so I just wanted to balance that a little bit by saying I don't think I would do the surgery if it involves going through the jaw, mainly because of the extent of her dental issues overall and this only addressing one tooth. I hope I haven't overstepped, feel free to ignore me, she's your degu, you know best, and I hope the xrays will make it clear either way. You're just being the voice of reason
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