Riley's Teeth (no surprise there!)

[morton235]

So Rileys incisors were trimmed 11 days ago, and already there are issues. There's about 2-3mm worth of a spur developing on the back side of her lower incisor, which has our vet worried. She's been back and forth so many times, and over the past few months her teeth issues seem to have doubled, if not tripled. Previously she was getting them trimmed once every 4ish weeks, and doing well, with a fair few months before we even considered looking at her molars again. Now, her teeth aren't even lasting two weeks before they need burring again. She's developing spurs like nobodys business, both on her front and back teeth.

Rileys incisors were trimmed 11 days ago. Prior to that was 10 days. Prior to that was 7. And 11 days before that the trim included her molar burr. It's gone crazy!

Rather than just burring her incisors today when he doesn't have time to do a full inspection, Andrew wants to see her back tomorrow so he can knock her out properly and double check her molars, just because of everything that's been going on and her tooth growth having gone nuts. He did say that he just doesn't know what to recommend, other than keep burring them, which is so frequent now it seems almost unfair. Since Andrew took the rot out of her incisors and burred them down to below where it was, Riley has been eating her dry nuggets wonderfully - I hardly ever saw her eat before, where as now I see her all the time and she's straight in the bowl. The issue is, she won't chew! I can't find anything she will remotely entertain wooden wise, and she's not interested in any of the fancy hay I buy her. 

Any ideas on keeping those teeth down, or anything that could be causing such a flair up? I've not changed anything to do with her diet at all, and she's on selective which from what I remember is one of the best for Cal:Ph ratios. She was on a fair amount of hand feeds with peanut butter mixed with baby food and recovery through her ranula removal, but I would have thought that that dietary change would no longer have an effect on her teeth with it being end of Jan when that happened.

[deguconvert]

I wonder if there is an issue with Vit. D? Bouncy uses a UV light and liquid Vit D drops (like for babies). I'm not sure if she puts the Vit D in the water, but it has done wonders for her degus and their teeth. I don't remember if you have a UV light, Morton? Or if you also use the Vit D drops?

[moletteuk]

I don't know.

I would think it might be possible that there could be a somewhat delayed reaction from the baby food peanut butter episode, but maybe that could be a good thing because it could mean that she might improve again in a couple of weeks??

Is she interested in forage? Fresh forage would be the quickest and best way to get some bio-available calcium into her. Kitchen herbs, dandelion, plantain (ribwort & greater) and most other safe meadow plants. Alfalfa is easy to get hold of dried. Fresh grass is the best thing for tooth wear (because of the silica content). Likewise fresh twigs are the best things for tempting chewing, but I think it's a big ask for her to want to chew.

DC has already asked about vitamin D.

I would say beyond calcium, vit D and fresh forage, let the vet guide you.

[bouncy]

Hmmmmmm. Vitamin D is a tough one. If she's eating nuggets, it suggests she's already getting her share, and you could cause her even more problems if a dose results too much. You could try a single drop in her water and see if it makes any difference and increase or stop as appropriate?

Is she still on Metacam and, if so, what dosage? I'm wondering if her pain levels aren't being controlled any more, and she needs a little, er, encouragement to chew more. I wonder if the subject matter is also not appealing to her? Titchy swears by strawberry mineral blocks from P@H. Her goos turn them (and themselves) into pink powder in no time at all. I don't know if it's the colour or smell, but worth a try!

Forage is great for wearing molars, but it's finding something tempting for the incisors........let me have a think......

[morton235]

The light system for Vit D has been high on my to-do list for a while now, but unfortunately with everything going on I haven't had a chance to pursue it. I'd worry about adding it into water in case she overdoses, plus Mr Goo would also drink from it, but I can run it by Andrew and see what he thinks.

If it's a delayed reaction to the baby food it would be a bit strange that this hasn't happened before, considering she practically lived off the stuff when she first arrived, but I suppose it's the only dietary thing that's changed recently.

Her dosage for metacam is 0.15ml of dog strength. Our old vets did say to give her 0.2ml, however that was what she was on for the cat strength so I wasn't comfortable giving her that much, so quietly reduced it.

Forage wise I never give them fresh, really. I worry too much about bloat, but I'm happy to try it if it will help. I can introduce it very slowly. So fresh grass is good? Just.. like, bog standard grass? Appeal wise, the dried forage she gets offered is like a bounty. Every day they get a combo of dandelion, ribwort, green oats, and some of the mixed woodlands forage stuff, a rotation of timothy, oat, herby or chamomile hay, and then their selective nuggets. Chew wise there's a ton of willow toys, a mix of different wooden chews/houses, and those hanging toys from pets at home.

I'll have to pick up a few mineral blocks, thanks for the tip! I didn't realise they could have them. Would that not add any sugar into the diet with it being strawberry? Or is that literally just the shape and colour?

[ntg]

Is the 0.15ml of metacam once a day? It might be worthwhile splitting it into twice a day as it might give better coverage for the pain than it all being administered in one go?

[bouncy]

Tbh even if she ingests some of the mineral block, it's worth it to get her chewing!

[hpdegus]

My lot won't touch willow sticks, but they will fight for apple sticks! Even when Fred wasn't doing well at all, he would still chew apple sticks. The packs I buy have a variety of thicknesses, so some of the thinner sticks may work for Riley. Just a thought!

[moletteuk]

The UV light is the safest way to provide vitamin D. We did work out a dosage of baby strength drops that you could put direct on a treat and give to Riley deguworld.proboards.com/thread/21814/vitamin-drops I'd be tempted to try the drops short term at least until you can sort out a light.

Bloat is almost a myth, I've only heard of it when fresh plants are introduced too quickly, or from too much clover, or from things that give any mammal gas like broccoli and beans. If you offer it in small amounts at first it gives the gut flora time to adapt and you shouldn't have a problem, but do keep an eye on poo quality. When my girls have been poorly or old or have loss of appetite they have really enjoyed fresh grass, there are lots of species and they do much prefer some over others, but generally look for fresh growth and try to pick the full length of a blade rather than just short bits. Obviously look for clean grass with no chemicals. Likewise, fresh dandelion, plantain, ground elder (brilliant right now), willowherb, young dock leaves & sorrel (not too much), nipplewort (also plentiful now), cleavers, sow thistle (favourite) all currently growing. There isn't any scientific evidence for fresh forage directly improving dental disease but there is anecdotal and there are logical reasons since the vitamins and minerals are at their peak and most easy to absorb. Again, my girls always went crazy for fresh twigs over old, dried ones, they are great if you can get them anyway.

The mineral blocks concern me, although I can see they might be appealing for chewing purposes. If you decide to try just make sure she doesn't ingest much.


It could easily not be anything to do with the baby food or anything else, I don't mean to suggest it is anything you have done, only that those are the only things we have any control over, that's the only place we can look to try anything different.

[deguconvert]

That is a terrific list of fresh forage, Moletteuk!! I'm kind of envious that you have all those things growing right now. We are still buried under a compacted foot of snow.

[moletteuk]

We had a warm spell a couple of weeks ago that kick started everything, but I have been feeding Alice fresh almost every day all through the winter, although some days it has just been grass, I don't think she would have survived this long without it.

[morton235]

Oh gosh, I feel like there is so much to update. Everything has been such a rollercoaster and now I can barely remember what I've said and what I haven't, I hadn't realised I hadn't updated you guys, so this might be a bit of a shock, so sorry about that. Basically, Riley has a week to improve, otherwise she will be PTS Which is bloody awful, but I feel so horrible putting her through all of this.

Last week she went in for a further look at her molars, to make sure they were ok with her incisors going crazy and growing like mad. Whilst under, Andrew noticed her top incisors were wobbly, and when he had a bit of a poke one of them fell out So he ended up taking the other one out as well. On an ethical point, I hadn't wanted her to have her teeth removed at all, but there was little choice in the matter. He said it could be from previous trauma, and considering how stressed she used to get with her trims at another vets, who weren't great with handling, it could possibly have been something to do with that. It wasn't unusual for her to come out with a pulled out claw from struggling or a bleeding mouth, which is a huge part of why we travel so far to see Andrew.

He explained that this could possibly fix a lot of things. The trauma was there already and since he hadn't taken the roots out, her teeth would grow back. He said if I crushed her nuggets small enough for her to get them in her mouth, she can just use her back teeth to eat and she should be fine until her incisors grow back. Unfortunately, her eating nuggets just hasn't happened. Like, at all. She dropped dangerously low, to 134g, so instead of just 'topping her up' with handfeeds in the evening I began feeding her full time. She is bent on the hand feeding, she pines for the syringe and eats like she's starving, and I can't decide if that's a good or bad thing because she has food available in the cage if she's that hungry. She's now 154g, which is great, but still isn't touching any proper food. Whenever she feeds from the syringe, and sometimes even when she isn't, she squeaks with pain. I guess with her teeth errupting it's causing her some discomfort, which I know is normal for teeth and totally sympathise with her, but it's awful to hear. She doesn't run on her wheel like she used to, although in the past few days she has started having a little go. She is so sad to look at, I worry so much about her pain levels and what she is having to cope with. Knowing just how strong she is with her 'soldier on' attitude just makes it worse, because I imagine she is only displaying signs of a fraction of what she is feeling

I spoke to Andrew about Vit D and he said the bulb was a great idea - I've put a comment on molleteuks thread on the health section just asking some bits before I order the set up, so if anyone could help with that I'd massively appreciate it. I'm worried about ordering the wrong thing and then not setting it up right. Andrew recommended a generic vitamin solution rather than just vitamin D, which thinking about it might do her the world of good with her not eating forage and stuff. It's just a matter of finding something, I guess. All the ones I've looked at that I can get my hands on quickly don't include vit D. (Edit update on that: I'm going into town to get some Vit D baby drops today until I either find a general vitamin solution that's suitable or until the light is installed. Not quite what Andrew advised, but I know I can get those within the hour and hell, it's only super short term and it's not like I'm flooded with options right now).

Looking at her teeth with Andrew today, the initial joy at seeing her top teeth having come through was stunted with the realisation that only one has come through. The solo tooth is yellow, though, which is great. One of her bottom teeth has a big white streak through it though, which isn't great, and the wear is obviously uneven with there being a missing upper incisor.

I feel so defeated with her. Andrew said I've done everything I possibly can. The lighting is a last ditch effort, really. My husband pointed out that she's surprised me before, so hopefully she can do it again. I'm planning on hammering the hand feeding for the next few days to bulk her up, and then weaning her off it to see if she will eat nuggets again - at least that way if she dips she has a decent buffer. I'll introduce fresh forage too and see if it helps. It will be softer than the dry stuff, so might entice her.

[bouncy]

I just want to give you a hug!

I have to be honest, the lamp itself hasn't done much for my lot, but that could largely be to do with their 100% natural diet. Try putting one drop of vit d in her food - at this stage, ANYTHING is worth a try! Keep going with the feeds, as much as she wants, perhaps mix ground almonds in?

Scaredygoo has been going mad for the cc at the moment, even though he doesn't need it, but I have noticed a massive difference in him. He can maintain weight with normal eating, but not gain. He's more active, responsive, and happily kicks the other two out of their wheels!

[morton235]

Thanks Bouncy. Everything feels super crap right now! But hopefully she will surprise us all.

Admittedly that's disheartening to hear about your lamp experience, but I really appreciate the honesty. Like you've said, it could be dietary - Rileys diet will be wildly different to your goos, since she won't really eat forage or hay, only the nuggets. I mix a tiny bit of 100% peanut butter with her recovery for the fat content to help bulk her up, but only a tiny amount in case it had something to do with the rush in teeth growth.

How often should I give her one drop of vit D?

[moletteuk]

Hugs from me too.

If it helps I think it's a good idea to set this 1 week time limit, otherwise you might carry on for months with a slightly different crisis every week. Don't feel pressured to stick to it though in a weeks time if it feels wrong.

The UV light will take time to work. I would go with the vit D drops ASAP. The 'best' multi vitamin as far as I know is Vetark BSP multivitamin, it comes in plain white packaging or yellow reptile packaging but both are the same.

[moletteuk]

I would give her a couple of drops of baby strength when you get them, then maybe another drop every two or three days for the first week. I think the one drop twice a week that we worked out was quite conservative.

[morton235]

I think that's the main thing getting me down with her, it's one thing after another and she never seems to catch a break - just as soon as we crack one thing another crisis pops up to take it's place. It must be exhausting for her, bless her

I'll be getting the baby vit D drops today, but will also order some of the Vetark ones. I've used some of their products in the past with rehab and they're really good! I hadn't realised they do vitdrops too, but looking at them they're exactly what I want. Thanks!

[deguconvert]

Knowing how vital Vit D is for bone and tooth development, and just how precarious things are right now . . . I wouldn't have any hesitation in giving her the Vit D baby drops every other day . . . I might even give one drop daily for this first week. I wonder if Mr Goo would also benefit from some Vit D?

I'm so sorry you are seeing such a plummet in her health. I truly hope and pray that you see a clear and encouraging turn around in her whole being this week.

[morton235]

I might do just that DC, just for this first week. It's not like if she OD's on it anything worse than being PTS could happen in the space of a week. I've ordered both the Vetark vitamin drops and the UV light/fitting, so both of those should be here in the next few days. I /just/ missed out on next day delivery being tomorrow! So annoyed with myself! But at least she has the baby vit D drops for now. She's still going strong with her hand feeds, and earlier she even took a treat out of my hand. She didn't chew it, only took it and buried it, but that's more than what she was doing a few days ago so I'll take it!

[deguconvert]

Small victories are still victories!!