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Post by hpdegus on Mar 20, 2024 0:08:59 GMT
Feeling pretty upset at the moment. I just don't know what the problem is or if it's even fixable.
I might be pessimistic here or just overwhelmed. But he was at least holding 179g since the 12th. He's down at 173g right now. Maybe the antibiotics are just too rough?
I gave him a whole herb crock and he ate a tiny corner very very slowly before giving up. He ate baby oatmeal, but didn't have much this morning. I would have expected the antibiotics to start helping already, if they were going to.
The outer tip of his right ear is pretty red. No idea if that means anything at the moment. The fur around his mouth and hands is pretty matted, so I'll try cleaning that and see if it helps. His poop is still really thin and dehydrated looking too.
He's happily exploring the play area at the moment, but it doesn't seem like he's been quite as active today.
I'll call the vet in the morning, but I feel pretty defeated right now. Especially since he seemed to be doing a bit better after the first few doses
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Post by hpdegus on Mar 20, 2024 0:31:33 GMT
I also gave tramadol again. Stopping that could also correspond to him starting to drop weight. But honestly, I could just be making all the wrong decisions here.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 20, 2024 10:43:52 GMT
I'm sorry it's so hard right now. You have very little concrete information, you are making the best decisions you can.
It's a good idea to speak to the vet again.
Had you given the tramadol for a couple of days and then stopped? Have you got a record of exactly which days you gave which drugs that you could cross reference with weight and perhaps activity or how he seemed each day? Or could you piece that together from memory if you think it might help you figure anything out?
How's the burritoing going now? Would it be feasible to try again syringe feeding some CC?
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Post by hpdegus on Mar 20, 2024 10:58:19 GMT
Thanks Molette. I just hate that I can't seem to help him. And he doesn't want to eat this morning either.
I gave the tramadol for a day and a half after the vet visit and stopped when I started giving antibiotics. His weight went up a day after the first dose of antibiotics, but started dropping after 3 doses. I have noted that he ate baby oatmeal eagerly after the first dose of tramafol though.
There are just too many variables to narrow it down I think. I can try cutting things down again, but I want to talk to the vet first. And I think I'm going to have to start looking at quality of life here soon. If he just wasn't eating much but was active, I'd feel better about it. But while he ate fairly eagerly last night, he hasn't been great about eating for the past 2-3 mornings. And he was less active yesterday and this morning for sure.
I'm better at it, but I kinda wonder how much is actually getting in him since his chin/cheek fur is pretty matted down. Which can't be comfortable! I've tried to clean it up, but I've only made so much progress. I can try syringe feeding some CC, but he hates it so so much and has refused to swallow in the past. And I don't want to syringe feed if we can't figure it out. It's just so hard on him.
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Post by hpdegus on Mar 20, 2024 11:07:38 GMT
Just watched him smell the baby oatmeal, sort of slightly open his mouth and then close it. Like he was planning his approach but couldnt actually eat. Don't know if that means nausea, difficultly opening his mouth wide, or what.
Is there some sort of stomach soother I can give him? I'm assuming syringe feeding CC might help? Again, not sure if this is the problem.
Edit: OK, he's now taking the tiniest bites of the baby oatmeal.
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Post by hpdegus on Mar 20, 2024 15:32:50 GMT
Heard back from the vet. She agreed on stopping the antibiotic and monitoring for 1-2 days. If there's no improvement, I'm to contact them again.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 20, 2024 19:34:24 GMT
Don't forget to factor in a delay on the effects of at least some of the meds, particularly antibiotic, I'm not really sure what the delay is on tramadol, probably not so much. Could it have been the tramadol making him better when you started the antibiotic? I think it's unlikely the antibiotic would help on the first day. How many days antibiotic did he get? I don't want to confuse you further, but I would have been tempted to try for 7 days of antibiotic and then you know you have given that a proper chance. If need be I would syringe feed to get him through the 7 days. This is assuming you still strongly suspect ear infection and that you think the AB may have been working (was there any difference in the head area?). Just me trying to think methodically to rule things in or out at this stage. If you don't think he can stand it, then go ahead and stop it.
If you are really worried about quality of life at this point, then just give the tramadol, especially as it looks like it may have made him eat more.
I totally understand and agree that there should be a purpose or a plan to syringe feeding - it should be to buy you time for a plan to work or to figure something out. It's not worth it for extending life for its own sake when the quality is poor.
The painkillers and the ABs are two separate courses of action that may give him a future, does it help to weigh them up separately and decide if or how long you want to give each of them? Is it an option to give him everything for 2 or 3 days?
Critical Care is the best thing for his stomach, it really makes a difference. If you get a damp cloth ready in advance, you might be able to wipe his face after you feed. We get soft microfibre cleaning cloths over here that would be ideal. Might it help if you try holding him at a different angle to encourage him to swallow. Do I remember a pet sitter you used that was quite skilled - could you call them to help syringe feeding for 2 or 3 days?
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Post by hpdegus on Mar 20, 2024 20:00:21 GMT
It could have possibly been the tramadol. I believe it starts to help within 1 hour, but I'm not sure how long it takes to build up in the system however.
He's had 6 days of the antibiotic, so pretty close to a full course. I think its just so so hard to tell what the issue could be. He does seem to be holding his right ear more straight and perhaps less tight to his skull. But I think the head shaking I saw was actually when I touched his whiskers, not his ears.
He's really miserable at the moment. Puffed up on the heat pad and refusing to eat. I'll give him a bit more time and then try syringe feeding + giving tramadol. I am worried about quality of life. And me leaving on the 31st kind of changes everything. My mom is watching them for 9 days, but the experienced sitter has offered to help out if she needs it.
Yeah, they definitely are two different courses of action. I wish I hadn't muddled around so much at the beginning, there might have been a clearer action now. He's been getting progressively worse the past few days on antibiotics, though I can't say for sure that's causing the issue. I do feel like 6 days, while not ideal, is hopefully close to giving them a fair try.
I'll definitely try to get some more CC in him today. Maybe a more natural position would help (held like he's got all four paws on the ground)? Ohhh, I can try the microfiber cloths. They're probably gentler too. The fur that's matted has unfortunately probably been like that for days. I just can't quite get it all cleaned up. It's sort of in hard spikes, some plastered to his skin.
You're right, she could be a big help. I'll see if I can get more CC in him now. If not, I'll ask if she's available.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 20, 2024 20:56:19 GMT
OK, yes 6 days of ABs should have done something if it was going to.
How about for the next 2 or 3 days you give him tramadol and syringe feed and see if that makes a significant difference to his quality of life. Maybe there is a chance it will kick start his gut which may kick start his appetite.
Have you tried holding him against your chest and then leaning back so he is sort of at about 45 degrees, or you could use a cushion to alter the position and angle. I think it's a trade off because the more vertical (head up) he is the harder it is for him to spit the food/meds out. For the matted fur, you could try a wetter cloth to really wet the fur and then just a damp cloth to wipe him off.
Try not to regret anything, you have done your best at every point, you just have so little info to go on. Feel free to ignore my advice, I just used to find it helpful to make say 3 or 5 day plans to control my worry when I had an ill or declining degu.
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Post by hpdegus on Mar 20, 2024 21:08:07 GMT
Yeah, they may have done something, but it could be masked by the GI issues.
I'll try that! I was leaning that direction, too. I just got tramadol and some CC in him. He seems to like the taste of the tramadol, at least! I went through 4 1.25mL syringes of CC, so hopefully, I got at least a mL or 2 in him.
I've tried something similar, I think. I sit with my legs bent, knees pointed up. He faces me and his back goes against my thighs. I just tried holding him under his elbows so he's in a bit more of a horizontal position. He seems to do better about swallowing if I let him attack the syringe for a bit!
I'll try holding a soaked cloth against his cheeks. Hopefully, that'll help at least a little! I was able to clean up any new mess with the microfiber cloth, so thank you for the idea!
Thank you, Molette. The lack of info to go on really gets to me. I very much appreciate your advice! I was thinking the same with the tramadol, it just helps to have a second opinion.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 20, 2024 21:44:34 GMT
Glad to have been useful.
Have you got any bigger syringes for the CC? I recall favouring the 5ml ones, might be easier to get more into him with less trouble. See if you can get a bit more CC into him each time.
It's worth experimenting with any position or technique ideas, that's great if attacking the syringe makes him feel a bit more in control! I think the main thing for me was mindset, just deciding I would keep trying until I found a way. I haven't forgotton how difficult and stressful it was!
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Post by hpdegus on Mar 20, 2024 21:53:47 GMT
I do have bigger syringes, but I feel like I have finer control with a 1 mL syringe. It's easier for me to not push too much at a time. He also seems to need frequent breaks. Yep, if that's what he needs, I'll take it That's a good mindset. I'm feeling a bit more settled now, so hopefully that will help. Having him doing so much better this weekend to being back at square one threw me for a loop. Kind of glad it's not just me it's stressful for! (Don't tell him I'm watching, but he's eating baby oatmeal at the moment! Hopefully getting somewhere between that and the CC!) Edit: he dropped 2g from yesterday, even with whatever CC I managed to get into him.
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Post by bouncy on Mar 21, 2024 16:47:39 GMT
I personally use a 15ml syringe. Sooty has finally realised he doesn't need to do anything. I simply pop it in his open mouth and syringe his mouth full! I usually stop before he thinks his mouth is full enough, because he keeps chasing it before eating his mouthful. It takes him a good hour before he'll actually eat syringe contents, rather than sniffing. When he was really struggling, we tried a 10ml that had a smaller opening, but he didn't like the smaller opening.
Just to give you an idea, he grazes a bit during the day on forage, but scoffs 15-20ml of cc and ground almonds each evening on my lap. That's a LOT of 1ml syringes!
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Post by hpdegus on Mar 21, 2024 16:55:14 GMT
Awww, Sooty sounds adorable! And very opinionated haha!
Hmmm, I can try a bigger syringe. He was pretty resistant again this morning. Really hoping he starts picking up here soon. Or gives a sign of some sort.
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Post by hpdegus on Mar 22, 2024 0:13:11 GMT
No weight change this evening. He did eat the baby oatmeal right when I came home and the forage was disturbed, so he hopefully ate some of that! Still not wanting to eat treats, though. I don't think I've seen the full body muscle clenching today either? I haven't seen much wheel running, but I did just see an almost normal poop Here's a comparison of what he looks like right now (left) vs the last day of antibiotics (right). I think he looks a bit less fluffy, but it could be wishful thinking on my end! He looks so much more like Tom, now that he's not doing well. It's kind of heartbreaking. photos.app.goo.gl/yN2iDEHS5xTzYEsGAI'll try giving CC with a bigger syringe, hopefully he'll swallow more than gets on my clothes! Spoiler: he did not. I pushed 15mL and I think he swallowed maybe 1mL? Good think I was planning on doing laundry soon!
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 22, 2024 10:12:07 GMT
I agree he looks a bit better in the later pic. He has got the little old goo look, I'm sorry for the heartbreak.
You can only do your best with the CC. Get yourself an apron...or hazmat suit!
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Post by hpdegus on Mar 22, 2024 11:02:12 GMT
Ok, I've written out a list of comments for the vet. I don't know if she'll want to see him again soon. I think there's a bit of improvement over when he was on antibiotics, but he's nowhere near what he was right around the time I had just started antibiotics. And nothing close to what he was when I first started the pinobendan or before that. I've put a link below to picture progression. 'D1' is for dose X given that day. There should be dates on all pics, or the info should be in the Metadata. photos.app.goo.gl/3QZyKzQ2sNxQN5Jr5 Good: 1. He's started eating a bit more, especially in the evening/night. He'll have finished off the baby oatmeal when I wake up in the morning, and the forage is disturbed. 2. Poop is not great, but looking less dehydrated and skinny. 3. Slightly less fluffy. 4. Ear do a look a bit better. 5. Ate crock pieces over night. 6. He's on all levels of the cage, not just the bottom one. Bad: 1. Reluctant to eat, especially in the morning. 2. Not really running on wheel. 3. Not sustaining activity during play time (used to run around for 30-60 min. Now more like 20 max. I want to stop the pimobendan. It's probably just coincidence, but he seemed to start going downhill after several days of that. One of the commom side effects is loss of appetite.
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Post by hpdegus on Mar 22, 2024 13:41:13 GMT
He didn't eat any baby oatmeal before I had to syringe feed CC. I used the 1mL syringe because even though it's slower, he just spits out CC from the bigger syringe.
He did eat the baby oatmeal I left in the cage overnight though, which he hadn't done before. So hopefully he was just feeling full.
He pooped multiple times when I was syringe feeding, they were much plumper! Which is a weird way to describe poop...
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 22, 2024 17:35:19 GMT
He did seem to decline fast, he looks worst on the 19th. Good to hear poop and his overall look is improving.
When does he get gabapentin and tramadol, could they be affecting appetite negatively or could pain be increasing when next dose is due? Actually, irrespective of the drugs, if he effectively has severe arthritis, that makes you wake up feeling stiff and likely in pain, so he may be slower to get going in the mornings, which would affect appetite.
Since his future is still at risk anyway, I don't really see the harm in doing a trial stop of the pimobendan, unless there is any drug specific issue with stopping it suddenly. He needs to eat more than he needs a healthier heart.
Do whatever works best for you with the CC.
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Post by hpdegus on Mar 22, 2024 18:03:11 GMT
Yes, the 19th was bad. That would have been the last dose of orbax. And it really did seem fast. It could have been the stress of a vet visit, but he seems to love car rides and bounces back quick.
I try to have him eat baby oatmeal in the morning before any meds. The same with the evening. He always seems much better in the evening so it wouldn't surprise me if the arthritis was causing issues in the morning.
That's what I was thinking too. The vet said it was very slightly enlarged on the x-ray, he's not in heart failure. Maybe if I can get him stable and eating again I can try the pimobendan again. But I'm not going to force it while the more immediate problem is just eating.
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