Please help my fighting boys

[ubangilu]

I Have 2 old degu boys Sanchez and Diego, so I feel I need to tell their dominance story.
Sanchez is bigger than Diego and always was dominate until a good few years ago now and he started to get cataract in one eye (He's ok it's not diabetes his health is absolutely fine). Other than that he aged normally, slowly and Diego became Alpha with no problems. 2 months ago I had to move up the country and left my boys with my Mum who loves them and cares so much for them. Now I'm finally settled with a house and I job I decided to bring them up to live with me. I went down to get plans sorted. I've noticed Diego has aged a lot. He's now on par with with Sanchez. Less spritly. But now they are fighting. Not just boxing and mounting. My parents said they've been fighting a lot and I've found scabs on Sanchez. I moved them anyway to be with me. They moved wonderfully and settled in my new house better than I could wish for. But today I saw what could of been a furball fight. It's was very brief I didn't need to stop it. But I'm worried that's where Sanchez's scabs are coming from. I wanted to believed it's from them fighting and pushing each other off the platforms. I can't separate them, I just can't. They've been together with no problems all these years and STILL degu pile each other and groom each other like nothing has happened.
I'm dreading the response to this. But I'm hoping someone will give me hope that I don't have to separate them. But please help

[deguconvert]

Hello, Ubangilu, and welcome to the forum!!

So . . . about what age are they then? 6+ years? While it is not common that older degus should have a falling out, it also isn't totally unheard of. Lots of things can put them out of joint with each other like weather, time of year, changes in environment, or pain. Have they had a check up in recent times at all?

While two months ago seems forever for you, having missed them and been without them, the change to your Mum's house and trying to get used to the new home, new smells, sounds, etc. might not have been long enough for them to resettle. Moving to a new home can very much turn things over and bring about a new contest for dominance. It is also possible that the increased appearance of age that you are seeing on Diego, could mean that he is actually suffering as well as a result of the fighting. Having moved again, and I truly don't blame you for retrieving them, as I would totally do the same thing, they will once again be adjusting to the new smells, sounds, and location of your new home. This will unsettle them even more for a time for sure.

It is possible that your Mum's cage cleaning process was enough different than yours that it has caused issue for them as well. Do you use the practice of returning a handful or two of old substrate and spreading it over the new substrate, so as to keep enough of their scent cues available to them for the sake of their memories and the information contained in those scent cues? How thoroughly do you clean the cage and how often?

I'm also going to ask what you use for a cage and what are it's dimensions? Do you use the Thickets cage that P@H like to sell?

[ubangilu]

Hi degu convert they are both 6/7 years old. Maybe 8 max.
They were fine at my mum's house until the week I decided to move them to mine. The thing is Diego looks much healthier now he's moved into mine. I think They were both a bit too cold at my mum's?
I have never kept a handful of old woodshavings and my mum didn't either. We just always make sure the build up to the move to put the old woodshavings into the transport cage and then put those shavings into the cage and the bedding has been kept the same in their house with some extra in the cage near by if they want it. Clean the whole cage once a week I don't use any disinfectant of any kind. I originally had the pets at home ddgu/chinchilla cage that I extended when they were 1/2 years old so it's now 2/3 bigger than the original cage.

Should I let them hash it out so to speak? Should it settle down after a while? What's the longest this could go on for really?

[deguconvert]

That is difficult to say. It really depends on what is the cause of the fighting. Cage size is often a huge source of trouble between degus, and we strongly encourage cages that are much larger than the thickets cage, which is tbh horribly inadequate for the needs of most rodents. It is possible they are reacting to the cage size, but you've had them in that cage for many years now and are only now seeing these conflicts. So . . . there could be pain, or there could be health issues. How is their breathing? Any raspiness to be heard? Any goop in their eyes, or wet noses?

A cool room could cause health trouble, but I would think that a cool room with high humidity and draughts would be worse. Is there any of that at your Mum's? If you suspect this, it is another reason to maybe have your boys looked at by a vet.

It is also possible that in the move to your Mum's there was some kind of falling out between the two and now there are grudges that stand in the way. The only way to get over that is for them to get through it, or be separated. Are they uncomfortable with each other? Do you see tail wagging? Is there "hunting down" behavior where you see one or both tracking each other through the cage and then agitating or fixing for a fight? Shrill whining and growling between them? Dominance over foods or water? Is there puffing up of fur, so they look big and round like a fluffy tennis ball?

Lots of questions I realize, but I'm just trying to suss out some of their behavior to see if it might shed a light on things.

[ubangilu]

Yeah their house is over double the size of the thicket cage. Breathing is fine, nose and eyes are clear (other than Sanchez's cataracts but it's not changed) they are eating fine. The only thing I could think is I found an exposed screw where they had chewed a platform maybe I'm grasping at straws. But could the cut on Sanchez's arm come from that causing him pain and be aggitated? I feel like such a bad degu mum for not spotting it. But it has been removed now and I've checked over the cage thoroughly.
At my mum's there would only be a draught if the door was open but I can't say how often that would of been.
There is no obvious hunting down or bad behaviours going on unless they are in a little scrap. Like currently cute little chirping and snuggling in their house.
It's why I don't understand everywhere says as soon as it gets bad they won't be nice to each other again and need to separated but as bad as the fighting gets they still cuddle and make happy noises.

The one last thing I just found out which I'm now pretty angry at is my toddling nephew would be allowed to bang on their cage. So im furious as thats so unlike my mum. She said they seemed fine and didn't seem to care even come up to him and sniff him. But this banging has obviously gone away now being with me away from toddlers. Which if it is the stress of my nephew I'm hoping it should ease soon with the fighting?

I'm sorry I'm bombarding you with information and I feel like with the screw and the conditions they had to out up with round my mum's like such a bad degu mum. I cried on my fiancee last night when i found all this out I'm mortified.

[bouncy]

I wonder if sudden changes are the source. No matter how much your mum loves them, she's not their actual hooman slave. You've not been there, and now you are, and it's possible they're fighting over your affection? Alternatively, totally new location, new smells, sounds, etc. As they get used to each other, the slightest thing might cause them to freak out and attack the nearest thing. If so, this should settle down.

It is true what they say about goos and space. I have a group of three using four and a half levels 95x65cm and they still barge out of the cage each evening for free ranging.

[deguconvert]

I feel like I have asked so many questions that I overwhelmed you. I'm so sorry, love! Like Bouncy, I really do think the conflict you are seeing is more to do with the upheaval of the moves and the new locations. It could also be that they were missing you very much and were unsettled as a result of that. (I've received more than one furry cold shoulder after being away for a few days, as have others of our members. When they are so well bonded with us, they do tend to act out if we haven't been around.) If it is these things, you should see them settling down and becoming very stable again in a while. Depending on them, if could be days or it could be a few weeks.

I really don't think you are going to be seeing long term issues because of your tiny nephew, so don't worry about that. Degus are really quite resilient you know, despite occasionally (or frequently, depending on the individual degu) being a bit "pissy" about things. LOL! I also don't expect that the screw will have caused significant injury or trouble. It's a good thing to have it out, and good on ya for doing that, but I think you can give yourself some grace about it, too!! Had you known it was there earlier, you would have dealt with it earlier. Like anyone, you took care of it as soon as you were aware. You did great!

I know that troubles can go on, and when our degus are troubled, we are also troubled, so please feel free to discuss how it's going further. To ask more advice. To just rant if you need to. We have been where you are, and we totally understand. We're here to support you and your degus!

[ubangilu]

Hi sorry it's been a long time. My boys have settled down, no fighting anymore. I'm keeping an eye on Sanchez's cut arm as it's just in scratching range for him so manages to scratch the scab off. I am worried this is delaying the healing process, but he's not in pain, it's clean and healthy with no infection. I just wish I could stop him scratching it!!!

[bouncy]

Nobody can resist scratching an itch!

I'm glad the boys have settled down for you. As mentioned, it was all likely due to the changes happening around them

[ubangilu]

I'm glad too. They are so much happier now. My little boys. They do keep me company while my other half is away on his job. Always come and greet me when I get in. Degu always wants armpit scratches from me.