Introducing two degus has come to a stand still

[14hours]

Hello! This is my first post, been lurking for a while but finally had a question so I signed up. I've read the rules but if I do or say anything wrong please let me know so I can fix and adjust  

So, my sister works at PAH and as a result, I have a house full of previously unwanted or "problem" rodents. My first degu, Petal, was bought back to the shop because her sisters had beaten her up and after she'd healed and been given a pass from the vets, I bought her home. 

A few months later, my sister started sending me videos of another lone female degu, who had been bought back for the opposite reason; she'd been beating up her sisters. 

I resisted for a while, because I really don't have space for another cage, but eventually succumbed under the premise that if the introduction didn't go well, PAH would take her back. My sister and I both knew, deep down, that if it didn't go well, I would find a way to house them both separately and comfortably, even if it meant moving house. I named her Leaf. 

Petal is roughly 3 years old and Leaf is less than a year old. 

I've been following the guide on degutopia and so far so good. I have a large cage that I've split horizontally, leaving gaps for them to talk to each other but not get at each other. I'm on step 4 of the guide, where I'm letting them play together in a neutral zone (the bath) before putting them back in the opposite level of the cage they spent the night in.

The first time they met without barriers, there was a little mounting from Leaf, but Petal's only reactions were to move away and squeak a bit - no aggression, not even boxing or barking. For the rest of the time, they just groomed each other! It was beautiful.

But now comes the problem, the last two times I've had them in the bath, they don't really interact with each other. They'll jump over each other and if one is doing something, the other will come over to see what's up but that's about it. They spend their time trying out-manoeuvre me and jump out the bath, or run around the top of it. There was a little teeth chattering today but I think that was at me because I was stopping them doing what they wanted (jumping out of the bath).

Since I got Leaf and started the introductions, 99% of their interaction is happy/calm little bubbly noises. When I moved them to the big cage (and started the process from scratch) Leaf barked a couple times at Petal but I think she was stressed in the new environment and there hasn't been any since then. 

So, I don't know what do to now! Do I keep trying to get them to interact in the bath or do I move onto step 6, letting them be in the same section of the cage together and possibly overnight?

Thank you for reading this far and thank you in advance for any advice! 

[bouncy]

Hi, and welcome! I totally know where you're coming from, as two of my gerbils and three (was four) degus came from that same source. Many degus are returned there for fighting simply because the cage they sell degus with is way too small for one, let alone a group.

First things first, could you please post a picture of your set-up, along with some measurements? It might be that there's something that stands out to us. There is, unfortunately, no hard and fast rule for introductions, and different things that we wouldn't usually recommend have worked perfectly for others! Some ideas come as you get to know your goos. You will also have to be extremely patient. The fastest intro from start to finish has been five minutes, and one of the longest was over two years.


It sounds like you're doing everything right, and they want to be together, especially as there's been no aggressive behaviour. I certainly wouldn't just chuck them in the same cage yet. Do they have any area where they usually get free range time? If so, try them together there first. Stand by with a water spray and oven glove for an emergency separation.

If you do want to try them together, I'd put them together in the morning morning one weekend, sit with them for the first couple of hours, then see how they feel. You can always make a call from there. I wouldn't leave them overnight until you've spent a lot of time observing them in the large cage.

In the end, the next stage comes down to your nerve and observations so far........

Please take a step back from Degutopia. Whilst the information was pretty good at the time, it's not been updated for several years, and doesn't reflect changes in goo care. There's much more understanding now in terms of behaviour, and space requirements.

[moletteuk]

Welcome to the forum

Ignoring each other is a good sign. We tend to advise against swapping sides of the cage, it can make them feel 'invaded', we find it is better to swap bedding and substrate to mix their scents.

It sounds to me like you need a more natural space to do the meetings. Could you set up a play pen or arrange a safe room or safe part of a room that you can divide off?

How are they interacting at the meeting place in the cage?

[14hours]

Hey guys! Thank you so much for your replies! Now let's tackle the answers

First things first, could you please post a picture of your set-up, along with some measurements?

This is their cage i.imgur.com/uBOyZ1F.jpg the split is almost dead in the middle. It's dimensions are 79cm x 52cm x 140cm (here's the listings for more info www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005CAYUKY/)

Do they have any area where they usually get free range time?

No (except for the bath I suppose?) I have something set up for my gerbils and hamster but the walls aren't big enough to contain the degus. That's something else I forgot to ask! What do you guys use to create little play pens? Everything I can find either has too big gaps or is crazy expensive.

Gutted about degutopia! I was taking that as gospel! Thanks for the heads up

we find it is better to swap bedding and substrate to mix their scents.

Oh d**n! Well, I don't think it's done any harm, they seem happy in both sections of the cage, treating it like their own but they're currently in the opposite side they started, do you think I should put them back and then swap their nest boxes around?

I have a bit of an issue with that Leaf loves the sand bath but, for as long as I've had her, Petal couldn't care less about it. She "bathes" in everything but the sand, from the dust from her mineral block to just normal paper substrate, so I can't have them swap scents that way.

It sounds to me like you need a more natural space to do the meetings. Could you set up a play pen or arrange a safe room or safe part of a room that you can divide off?

What do you mean more natural? I don't have a play pen (yet) but you gave me an idea, I could block off my entrance/front door area, there's no wires or anything to chew there. I just need to find something that's strong and big enough to keep the secure.

How are they interacting at the meeting place in the cage?

I've tried to get so many videos but by the time I've got my camera out and muted the TV they stop! For about 1-2 minutes, maybe 5-6 times a day, they come to the gap in the cardboard and the one on the bottom will stand on their hind legs and the top will get low (it looks like they're kissing lol) and they do that bubbly noise, I'm not very experienced with degus (these are my first) but it honestly sounds happy and relaxed. Usually, after interactions, Petal will chew the bars near the meeting area for a bit and sometimes, if Leaf is on top, she'll nap right on the mesh.

[misscatafer]

Your introductions seem really positive so far, I agree with the others, you need to test them together in a larger area where they won't be trying to escape. My play pen is made of this : www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B016DY1MD0/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_sCbVzbEK2CS7R and it is fantastic and escape proof.

Just to warn you, I had this cage split for two groups horizontally the way you did... And they chewed through the plastic shelving one day and I came home to find one of my degus nearly dead from injuries. Do not trust them with plastic, they can chew through in minutes when they realise they can. I bought glass chopping boards from pound land and covered all the plastic shelving with it to make it safe, and then eventually replaced all the shelving for solid wood.

The good thing about the cage is the nice big doors, so if you did do an intro in the cage you can easily have both arms in to break up any nonsense. Sometimes intros are about trial and error. I started my successful introduction in the cage... Then tested them in the play pen before allowing them to live together for good in the cage again. If they are warbling to eachother in the cage that is a good sign, especially as you are essentially 'fixing' the heirachy by having them top and bottom, which is usually a negative thing which degus can't tolerate, so the fact they are tolerating it says a lot.

[deguconvert]

Hello 14hours and welcome to the forum . . . forumally. I think you have been well answered and I don't think I will add anything, but will be watching your thread to see how you are doing.

[bouncy]

Certainly agree re the plastic shelving! Fortunately, fixing that will be all the better for your goos!

I'm lucky that my goos live in the kitchen, which has no loose wires, and they know not to chew the kitchen units. It means I open the doors each evening, and they come charging out. After an hour or so, the first group has had enough, trots back in, so I let the second group out. I know I'm very lucky to have such a set up. Some have made their own runs for the goos by joining panels of hardboard together. Piano hinges create a metal edge inside, so they can't chew the corners, you can have sides 100 high so they can't launch themselves, and you can usually fit inside so you can sit with them!

We ideally recommend a larger cage footprint of 100x50 because degus love to run, and it's a way of letting them get up to full speed. When they're happily together (which sounds like the weekend?), cut some board (or make use of Bunnings'/Homebase's cutting service to the size of the cage inside. Use nuts and bolts, together with penny washers, to create pegs to rest the shelves on! Just make an opening in the corner so they can get there, and you have now got complete levels, aka more running space! Some of us cover the board with lino to avoid wee soaking in, and some put some sort of metal edging around the openings to stop them exercising their teeth......

[14hours]

My play pen is made of this : www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B016DY1MD0/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_sCbVzbEK2CS7R and it is fantastic and escape proof.

These are brilliant! But how do you attach them together?

And they chewed through the plastic shelving one day and I came home to find one of my degus nearly dead from injuries.

I'm so sorry about that I'm glad they're okay though.

I have wire mesh from my old cage covering the split so they can't get through even if they chewed the plastic Petal did chew some plastic the first week they were in the new cage but she hasn't touched it since, so I think (hope) she's decided it's not prime chewing material.

Just make an opening in the corner so they can get there, and you have now got complete levels, aka more running space!

I got a bit lost here! You mean, instead of having shelves that are 1/3 or 2/3s of the cage area where they can jump to them (and use ladders), just create whole levels?
I can't afford to buy a bigger cage right now, I thought I did well buying this one but I'm definitely and constantly looking at ways to create playpens that'll I'll let them out into every day.

So, update.

I've just let them out again but instead of containing them in the bath I let them have the whole bathroom floor and hall area (removed everything from the floor and put toys down). I moved the cage into the hall and blocked the bottom of the doors (the gaps under the doors are smaller than their cage gaps but you can never be too careful). I opened the cage doors but had to help the top one down.

They ran about exploring and when they would cross paths they would warble at each other. Leaf ran in and out of the cage but Petal was more interested in running underneath it, she didn't go in the cage once. There was two seconds of humping from Leaf but I don't think Petal even noticed 'cause she was busy trying to dig under the towels I'd used to cover the door gaps :')

I put them back in the opposite sides that they were in today but not because I wasn't listening to you guys, because Leaf originally started at the bottom and that's the bit I think she's more comfortable with and I won't swap them again tomorrow. I did swap the nest boxes around.

I actually work from home so I can and am with them all day, they're right next to my desk so if I can find a suitable playpen for the living room, I can have them out during the week.

Ergh, I forgot to tell you guys something quite important. Since Leaf was bought back to the shop, she pulled all the hair out of her right arm. My sister's manager says it was because of kids tapping on the glass so they took her off the shop floor but me and my sister think it's separation anxiety (from her sisters) as she continued to do it, even when off the shop floor.
She only bit her arm once or twice the first week I had her, but when I swapped them around and put her in the top she started biting her other arm, which is now bare, which is why I made the decision to put her back in the bottom. (So I guess I was wrong about them being okay in both sections!) I'll monitor her arm chewing.

Thank you guys so much for all your advice and support! This is lovely!

Overall, I think Leaf is more excited about being friends with Petal and Petal is sort of "take it or leave it" which makes sense, given their ages and histories.

What's my next step? When do I know if they're okay to try them in the cage together and what section should I try them in?

[bouncy]

That sounds so positive!!!!!! I bet they loved charging up and down the hallway and bathroom!

If I were in your shoes, I think I would give the cage a normal clean, remove the partition, and see how they get on together in the whole cage!

You're right about the fur pulling probably being more about separation anxiety - they do get lonely and depressed, and it's their version of self-harm. Once they're together, it should settle down.

Don't worry about the cage, everyone makes that mistake to begin with - our goos love to run! My suggestion is for full levels - it's about increasing the floorspace that they have to run around on. When finances are in a better state, then you can decide what you want to do going forward We're here to help and advise but, ultimately, they're your goos, and they're lucky to have you.

[misscatafer]

Is the mesh covering every entirety of the plastic, not just the gap? It needs to to be safe. Mine were in the cage for 9 months before they chewed through.. Trust me they are funny animals and will ignore something for ages then suddenly destroy it without warning.

To be honest, as you are having no aggression at all during play time I would try them in the top section of the cage (it's easier for you to get in there). Just be on high alert and don't leave them alone, keep the door open. Maybe do this tomorrow or whenever you have a long period of time with them.
When I did mine, I started off holding Toby to Boos cage, that went well so I held him with the door open, that continued to be positive so I let him in the cage (scary!) he was scared of being with another degu after being alone so long but wasn't aggressive and Boo was happy enough with the visitor, so after a few times of doing this for short periods I had them in the play pen together only twice I think... Both times Toby started off being a scaredy cat and running away, but still had no aggression only warbling and cuddles eventually. The second time it was clear they would be firm friends so I waited til I had an evening off and put Toby in Boos cage... And he has never come out I wanted to share this to show you how different all intros are.

[misscatafer]

Oh! And you fix the panels together with black masking tape on the playpen

[moletteuk]

When I said a 'more natural' place for the meets I meant somewhere less distracting and 'foreign' than a bath - sometimes a bath with it's enclosure and curvy sides it just makes them focus on escaping rather than interacting. Anyway, you did the right thing using the bathroom and hallway, if you want them to focus more on each other, then just use one or the other so they have less space.

Warbling at each other is a very good sign. I agree with the others that they are ready for a meet in the cage or a much longer meet in the hallway/bathroom. If you can put them together one morning you can watch them all day and you have plenty of time to see if you want to leave them together overnight. Any problems at all and just cut it short and keep doing the meetings.

Fur pulling is very common and since you are aware of the probable cause then I think at the moment you just keep an eye that the skin looks fine and hopefully it will improve when she has permanent company and is settled with her living arrangements.

Some playpen threads linked here: deguworld.proboards.com/thread/18716/accessories-make-buy

Let us know if we missed any of your questions.

[14hours]

Hi guys! Sorry I've not replied until now, I had a friend come over and stay so not really had the time.

Is the mesh covering every entirety of the plastic, not just the gap?

It is yeah

So I let them out on Thursday and it was pretty much the same as Wednesday. Yesterday we decided to try them in the cage together so we set about cleaning it. Wheeled them and the cage into the hall, blocked the door gaps and let them out. We de-assembled the cage and they were having the time of their lives running around and exploring what we were doing. It took a while to clean all the plastic and put everything back and they were running in and out of the cage together. Eventually they calmed down and started grooming each other while standing on my boyfriend's foot haha.

We finished putting the cage back together (we made a whole level and set up the ladders so they have sort of a circuit, hopefully better running space, I bought a larva ledge and some more chew toys as well) and closed the doors behind them when they went in.

I watched them all evening and everything went smoothly. There was a few over excited moments where Leaf would mount Petal and Petal would run away but, as far as I could tell, no aggression. Near the end of the night they started to settle down together and even started to rearrange the fresh nest box together! But I didn't want to take any chances so when one went to the bottom, I put the divide back in for the night. I've taken it out this morning and everything's going great

I'm going to watch them throughout the day and decide tonight whether to put the divide back in this evening. I will say that when I did, once Petal realised she couldn't get to Leaf she chewed the bars incessantly, which she hadn't done all day. Also, Leaf hasn't pulled her arm hair once since yesterday's bathroom episode!

What do you guys think? They seem to groom each other a lot! How often do your degus groom each other?

I want to thank you guys again for all your help, it's really put my mind at ease with all your advice and experience, you guys are lovely!

Here's a little gif of them grooming each other this morning

[bouncy]

They look like they belong together! I, personally, would just let them live together happily ever after!

[misscatafer]

Yay!! Leave them together, how fantastic that you had such a positive smooth intro!!! Really pleased for you, you are a fab degu owner

[deguconvert]

I say go for it!!

[moletteuk]

Great Just watch the mounting activity, ideally they need to submit to being mounted to show submission and acceptance, but sometimes they lack the social skills to understand or maybe just aren't ready to show that level of submission.