Sulley's Teeth

[lagomorphlion]

Hello, 

In November 2016 I took on a degu, knowing he had dental issues due to uneducated care in his first home. (We're his 3rd home)  

His exact age is unknown, however I know he is at least 4, with the likelihood being he is older. 

I noticed he's been struggling more as of late (grinding his teeth more, dribbling, pawing at his mouth), however his appetite has remained constant and he appears to be his usual bright and cheery self despite this.

I mentioned this at my cat's check up at the vet, and asked if it would be possible if he could give us some metacam, which he did. Once I ran out, I asked for some more over the phone however they said they needed to see him in order to prescribe some more. (which I totally understand)

A different vet looked at his teeth and said he's surprised Sulley is still managing to eat given their condition and thinks it is in his best interest to either operate or put him to sleep as opposed to long term pain relief.  

Given him being such a small animal and not being the youngest goo, I (perhaps naively) never seriously considered a general anaesthetic for him. 

The vet we saw is not an exotic vet, however he successfully performed the same procedure on another degu in October. If we were to go ahead with the op, I would much prefer to go to our local exotic practice. 

Unfortunately at the moment, I am opting more towards putting him to sleep, however this forum was recommend to me to see what other dental degu parents have to say. 

My main reasons for my current decision are:

- The emotional effect going through hospitalisation, the GA, and the recovery will have on Sulley.

- He's had dental disease for the majority of his life. I am concerned about soft tissue damage within the mouth, and how that will effect him after his teeth have been filed (or possibly removed).

- I am also concerned about the roots of his teeth and that his current condition is not so much to do with his original diet, but malocclusion. 
Whilst I am aware that some degus cope with regular vet treatment, I don't believe this will provide Sulley with the quality of life he deserves after everything he has already been through. I don't want to put him through an operation to them decide it is in his best interest to put him to sleep.

Any thoughts, experience or advice would be much appreciated - I understand only I can make this decision for him but want to make sure I have access to as much information as possible in order to do the best thing for him.

Thank you for reading. 

[moletteuk]

I don't have degus with dental issues myself, but we do have plenty on the forum and I would say that dental procedures are getting more and more common to the point where they are almost routine now. I know it sounds a bit scary and drastic but if you get an experienced vet then the success rates are very high and most degus recover within a couple of days and can go on to live normal lives for many years. Some vets do the work with gas sedation which seems to have very low risks.

Regarding the roots, we would normally advise that you get xrays done while he is under anaesthetic getting the dental work done. There's not much you can do about overgrown roots but metacam and antibiotics can be given if they are causing issues, again, many degus can live years following diagnosis. Soft tissue damage is a concern, normally antibiotics would be prescribed after the dental work, if necessary. If there is infection that is slow to heal, then samples can be taken and sent to a lab so that the correct antibiotic can be given, we are finding that vets are using a wider range of antibiotics as necessary for degus these days.

One of the limiting factors is frequency of treatment, but this can be anything from 10 weeks to a year but it's impossible to predict.

We always recommend that people re-evaluate diet, adding a good range of forage including fresh if possible can help, and also checking there is enough calcium and not too much phosphorus, and also adequate vitamin d in the diet. It's usually worth providing a UV lamp for dental issue degus so they can make and regulate their own vitamin d.


What dental issues has he had previously?

[zenaida]

I agree with everything moletteuk said.

I think before you make this decision, you should see if you can get more information. Some dental procedures are relatively easy and won't have much impact on the long term care, others take more involved management. It is best that you take him to someone who has seen many degus and done these procedures many times to get an accurate assessment. What you described is amounts to a "worst case scenario" in his mouth. What could actually be going on might be much simpler.

Where are you located roughly? Sometimes that plays a role. If you're near other forum members, they may be able to give vet recommendations.

[bouncy]

Hi there,

I've got a goo of unknown age that I adopted (believe he's also at least 4yrs). He also has dental issues, with spurs, and molar roots growing through his nasal cavities. He's been like that now for a couple of years. Like you, I was really worried about his quality of life. Fortunately, I have an exotics vet near me, who has done a lot of research on degus, and has even kept them himself as pets. He said there's nothing we can do to reverse the position, but that I would know when the time was right to say goodbye.

Since then, he's been on a daily dose of 0.1ml dog metacam. He LOVES the stuff, drinking it straight from the syringe, then licking the outside of the syringe clean afterwards. He's the sweetest little dude, and certainly keeps on going! Initially, his spur trims were three months apart. I then started to do a lot of reading and consulting of the German sites to understand more. He's on 100% natural diet. Working in conjunction with my vet, I've been able to make some changes. This helped him last five months to his next spur trim, with the spurs being a lot smaller. His last treatment (I wanted him checked before I went away for a month) was also five months after that, and he didn't have any spurs, just little nodules! If you want to read more, have a look in our health section for the thread on dental experiment. Additionally, there's a sticky at the top on goo dental health. yasmin is another member with dental goos.

Before you make any decision, please speak to an exotics vet who has good experience with degus. If you have xrays, take them with you. They’re a bit rare but, if you let us know which part of the country you're in, we can help to point you in the right direction. General rodent experience just isn't good enough.

We're here to help and support as much as we can, but just remember: there's life after spurs!

[randomname]

Hi lagomorphlion , nice to see you here

yasmin has a lot of experience with dental degus & @clairh has a degu with issues at the moment.ntg has a degu who had mouth problems, she'll have some insight on soft tissue problems.

I wish I had some advice myself, but I haven't had a degu with this issue.I would second the need for xrays as root problems aren't visible without them.
I had a chinchilla once who had an abscess on the root of the very back tooth, my vet initially thought it was an eye infection but once it became clear it was dental, she referred me to an exotics expert who specialised in chins. One xray later we knew what the problem was & the vet knew everything about it. Sadly poor Dave had no chance of a decent outcome as chins have stupid jaw bones that meant there was no way to operate without breaking the bone, which would mean he'd be unable to eat. I now go straight to the exotics vet if the problem is dental or in any way non standard, even though my vet is pretty knowledgeable. My vet even did an amputation on a degu for me, but she says dental issues have better outcomes when a specialist deals with it. I now have 3 vets on the books - a standard vet who treats the dogs, cats & general stuff, an exotics vet who treats the rabbits, g.pigs, degus & chins for more difficult stuff & an exotics dental specialist who is my first port of call for teeth. She once told me she had done 5 degu dentals that day!

I hope you can find some helpful information here. As Moley said, diet seems to have a big effect & our diet information is often a little shocking to some people - the standard nuggets & hay diet is a world away from what we advocate for. I remember years ago when I was a lurker & the amount of different kinds of forage was confusing, but now it's second nature. I also feed my rabbits, guinea pigs & chinchillas the same forage mixes, although the degus diet is around 95% hay forage, 4 % nuggets & 1% seeds, much more then the others. However, I've seen loads of improvement in coat health, overall health & we have no dental issues (touch wood) plus they all love their forage, they get much more excited for forage than nuggets or treats even

[ntg]

Yep, I have plenty of practice with mouth injuries as one of my little guys has a persistent infection in his gums that we're battling with at the moment. However, Sully's injuries are likely to have a better chance at healing easily than my lad as the vet would have noticed signs of infection quickly! At the same time, without treatment, those wounds can quickly become infected and get a lot worse for the little guy. With what you say, you need to make a decision what to do quickly before he starts to struggle with eating or his mouth injuries get worse.

My vets have always said that the risk of anaesthetic, although present, is quite small. They're an exotics department in a vet school so see a lot of cases come through and have experts in herbivore dental work. If you have an exotics vet nearby then I would definitely use them as a first port of call but do ask if they've dealt with goos in the past. As for stress, it depends on the goo but most of mine have handled vet visits really well, and all (even the one who showed stress after handling) were perfectly fine by the car journey home. I've had to regularly take two degus to the vets for treatment in the past and always would as I find the benefit outweighs the stress with them bouncing back so quickly!

I'd echo the others in saying, if you're willing, then the treatments and altering their diet can lead to many more happy months/years depending on how advanced the dental disease is. With spurs, the quicker you catch them, the easier the treatment is and once you know the signs your goo gives you that they're starting to have issues, the easier they are to spot.

Spurs don't have to be the end for Sully, but it has to be entirely up to you to decide what you feel is best for both you and him. After all, it's not easy financially or emotionally to deal with a special needs degu. But what I will say is, if you'd do the regular treatments for a rabbit, then it's actually not that much different (apart from incisor extractions are too risky to even attempt)! Just on a much smaller scale!

[yasmin]

Hello – welcome to the forum. Glad that you are checking out this forum and asking for advice before making any major, irreversible decisions.

I have had many degus with dental issues and with malocclusion. They all have great quality of life just like a human who has cavities and gingivitis does – they just need to see the dentist more often. Eventually they may have root issues that leads to other problems but that could be years down the road and may not be the case with Sulley.

Sulley is still eating so it is likely that his dental issue can be easily resolved at least for the time being.

My advice:
Take him to an exotic vet with degu experience ASAP. They will take a scope and look at his mouth.
If they see spurs that need to be removed, they will put him under with just a light wiff of an anesthetic – just enough for them to be able to open his mouth and remove any spurs that might be causing him a problem.
He will most likely be awake within a half hour and ready to go back home.
The vet may recommend a pain killer/anti-inflammatory in case his mouth hurts from the procedure or because of the issue, and they might prescribe an anti-biotic if there is an open wound that might be vulnerable to infection.

I don't think even x-rays are necessary at this point.

This dental work will improve his quality of life.

It should not be a major operation. It is like a human going to the dentist and the dentist needs to sedate the patient because the patient won't keep his mouth open – they do this for small children.

Putting him down should not even be considered at this point. He just needs to see a vet and have some routine dental work.
If they diagnose him with something more serious (like recommending that he needs teeth removed), then please let us know before making any drastic decision. We are here to help.

[claire]

I also think take him to an exotics vet.

My boy had a rotten tooth and spurs now he is only 2 so a lot younger than yours but he went in with a respiratory infection and very underweight so not in the best if health. 1 week of anti biotics and he went under and came home the same day with no problems.

Then developed an abscess under his jaw and lost even more weight but managed to get him healthy again with continued anti biotics.

I'm now at the point where I'm learning when he needs looking at again. This all happened in October and so far he's been ok. Learning the signs and of course ive asked these guys for help as usual


Never give up on your dude I know you don't want him suffering and i would feel the same as you but you will be surprised how resilient they can be. I honestly didn't think mine was going to make it. Now he beats up his older brothers lol.

While he's happy in himself i'd defo get him checked by an exotics vet. It might be as simple as a few spurs to remove to drastically improve his life so worth investigating as much as possible and I know even if it turns out he has root issues many degus live for a few years with management.