haaj
Foraging Degu
Posts: 99 
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Post by haaj on Nov 28, 2017 10:16:14 GMT
Hello everyone, long time no see! We still have the same two males, Ex-Little Spot and Friedrich, they're both 2,5 years old now. Some local people are giving up 8 degu pups for adoption (they couldn't sex their first goos properly, apparently...), and we decided we wanted to help and get a male pup... But unfortunately they can't keep the pups for longer than 4 weeks. So we're picking up our little goo in the evening today, but he's just 4 weeks old.
Now, I know that usually 6-8 weeks is the recommended age for this, but unfortunately these people can't be convinced, and we decided to go through with this anyway. My quesiton is, do we introduce the 4-week pup to the adults right away, or do we put him in a separate cage for a few days first? I know pup introductions are smoother than adult ones, but I'm a bit concerned anyway. And on the other hand, if the little goo has to spend a day or more alone in a cage after the stress of the move, I'm afraid it could be too traumatic for him. What would you do?
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Post by bouncy on Nov 28, 2017 10:21:56 GMT
Given he's so tiny, are both you and your partner able to do this together? You could try an intro and see if the boys adopt him, but there's no guarantee that they will. Just keep the area quiet small, and be ready to grab!
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haaj
Foraging Degu
Posts: 99
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Post by haaj on Nov 28, 2017 10:24:05 GMT
Just keep the area quiet small, and be ready to grab! Haha, that's the current plan actually! But I was wondering if maybe someone can provide arguments for a separate cage for a day or two. |
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Post by bouncy on Nov 28, 2017 10:28:11 GMT
Depends on how stressful the pup finds the transition. If he's really freaked, you can argue he may need time to settle, but I wonder if the trauma of the separation may be worse.
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 28, 2017 11:16:20 GMT
I think the sooner he is with adults again the better, they are learning important social skills at his age. I suppose you are balancing this against risk of harm or damaging the potential relationship if you go too fast for Spot and Friedrich.
I would certainly try the pup with the adults the same day if possible. Maybe you could leave him in the carrier next to the boys for a while and see how everyone reacts, that should give you an idea how it might go.
Don't forget to sex the pup for yourself.
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haaj
Foraging Degu
Posts: 99
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Post by haaj on Nov 28, 2017 11:49:34 GMT
I actually hadn't thought about just keeping him in the carrier for a little while. It's a bit big to fit into the cage's entrances, but I suppose we could just put it in front of the cage and see what happens. Thanks! (Also yes, we keep reminding each other to sex the pup ourselves!  |
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haaj
Foraging Degu
Posts: 99
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Post by haaj on Nov 28, 2017 17:54:36 GMT
So, we brought the little guy in and kept him in the carrier for a bit, placing the carrier right in front of the cage entrance. There was some interest on the adults' part, and they warbled just a little bit looking at him through the openings of the carrier. So after a while we thought this seems like a good sign, and we let the pup out into the cage, locking him there with the adults. Surprisingly, the adults only showed agitation and curiosity, there was almost no mounting. And when mounting began, it was Ex-Little Spot mounting Friedrich, since Ex-Little Spot is the dominant one of the pair. We thought once that's done, he'd switch to the new guy, but after some 15 minutes of attempts to get him (the little guy runs away, and always succeeds at intimidating the adults by barking at them and lunging forward a bit), they mostly squabble with each other and seem to more or less ignore the new goo.
Now I'm not sure what to do. I thought it'd go like our previous pup introduction, pup submitting after a brief struggle. But right now the adults seem to be more interested in themselves rather than him, and he's just kind of sitting there on his own in one of the little hammocks. Should we just leave them like this for the night and hope they will sort it out among themselves?
Update: Just as I posted this, Friedrich found the pup and mounted him, and the pup did not struggle. The adults are still squabbling with varying degrees of intensity.
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 28, 2017 18:26:24 GMT
I would be very very careful about leaving him in. While he is submitting, which is OK, we need to realize that the adults can also get really aggressive with the humping, and can penetrate and cause internal damage. This happened to a young pup in one of our member homes and was reported quite recently. The pup did not survive it's injuries. I would not leave him in over night. I would do multiple introductions, lengthening them with each successful time together, until you feel confident to leave him with them.
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 28, 2017 18:27:44 GMT
As for the people you got him from . . . I feel very badly for the pups they are sending out. That is a very young and vulnerable time for the pups to be parted from Mum and Dad.
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Post by bouncy on Nov 28, 2017 18:58:52 GMT
The boys are likely squabbling to confirm their hierarchy with three of them.
Has there been any kind of cuddle/warbling between them and the pup?
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haaj
Foraging Degu
Posts: 99
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Post by haaj on Nov 28, 2017 19:15:19 GMT
I would be very very careful about leaving him in. While he is submitting, which is OK, we need to realize that the adults can also get really aggressive with the humping, and can penetrate and cause internal damage. This happened to a young pup in one of our member homes and was reported quite recently. The pup did not survive it's injuries. I would not leave him in over night. I would do multiple introductions, lengthening them with each successful time together, until you feel confident to leave him with them. Yikes! We're so worried right now! Thank you for telling me about this. We'll prepare our spare cage for him for the night, then, and luckily we're both home tomorrow and can do another introduction. Can you give me a link to the relevant thread, or just what words to search for? So that we knew what to look for if something happens. As for those people, we tried our best to reason with them, but it turned out they had their goos for a year in a small cage, a small wheel, etc., had no idea how to care for a degu. When the female gave birth to the pups, they went online to find some information about degus, and now they're giving them all away since they realized they don't want to buy a large cage and/or put so much thought and care in. It's really horrible, but not as bad as some other cases, at least... |
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haaj
Foraging Degu
Posts: 99
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Post by haaj on Nov 28, 2017 19:17:32 GMT
Has there been any kind of cuddle/warbling between them and the pup? They alternate between trying to mount him (which the pup has reluctantly submitted to, once) and trying to sniff and/or groom him (which the pup seems to tolerate). Maybe some warbling - it's difficult to tell who's the one doing it, and there hasn't been much of it. And sadly no cuddling  |
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haaj
Foraging Degu
Posts: 99
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Post by haaj on Nov 28, 2017 19:35:12 GMT
We've just talked about our observations with my wife, and it seems that the little guy does share an occasional gentle moment with the adults - a tiny bit of grooming under the chin or on the back, a bit of warbling, etc., just very briefly. He seems to mostly enjoy Friedrich's attention (is this because he submitted to him?), whereas Ex-Little Spot almost always tries to mount him - but as soon as Ex-Little Spot's paws are on the pup's back, the pup jumps, barks, and a couple of times he actually jumped on Ex-Little Spot's back as if trying to attack... wow.
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haaj
Foraging Degu
Posts: 99
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Post by haaj on Nov 28, 2017 21:29:48 GMT
Well, we've put the pup into the spare cage, he seems very comfortable there (see the picture of him eating and sitting on top of his feed). We've checked him for injuries and found only a small scratch on the back, which we treated. The adults rested and have now resumed squabbling; there hasn't been much cage-to-cage communication (we've put them side by side, but the adults can't reach it from the floor!), but hopefully we'll see some progress tomorrow... or eventually... *sigh*  |
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Post by bouncy on Nov 28, 2017 22:15:17 GMT
His ears are mahoosive! And the bowl makes him look tiny.
It may be that they would have slept together when the time came, but is hard to tell. At least Friedrich appears to have taken his uncle role seriously!
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Post by winic1 on Nov 29, 2017 13:39:01 GMT
Question for everyone--is this pup old enough to have been fully weaned? Or should they be supplementing his feedings somehow, to make sure he's getting enough to eat and proper nutrition?
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 29, 2017 15:58:03 GMT
My understanding is that he should be more or less weaned, should be eating mainly solids by 4 weeks, although probably would be nursing a little if he can get away with it, DC could give us more accurate time scales.
It's certainly worth thinking carefully about diet, plenty of forage, good range of oil seeds including high calcium and some nuts would boost fat content.
The pup will be lacking in social skills or maybe food was a little scarce so has a tendency to be a bit feisty, anything can happen with introductions, even with pups. It's sounds like you made the right decision to put him in the spare cage.
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haaj
Foraging Degu
Posts: 99
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Post by haaj on Nov 29, 2017 16:38:41 GMT
The pup spent the night in the spare cage, which we furnished with two hammocks, a wheel, plenty of hay and feed, a water bottle, some ledges and whatnot to jump around on, etc. We also took some of the paper towels bedding from the adults' sleeping places, and placed it into one of the hammocks in the pup's cage. He seemed to feel better immediately after being put into the spare cage: started eating the feed right away, munched on some hay, explored the cage with a lot of curiosity. It took him some time to discover that the hammocks make good sleeping places, and that the paper towels bedding is good for warmth; eventually he figured it out and he slept most of the night under that.
Today we let the adults roam around the room while the pup's cage was on the floor. There was a lot of curiosity on their part, not so much on his - they stared, ran around the cage, and climbed it, while he would occasionally break into a series of whines. That all subsided eventually. Both the adults and the pup went to sleep, and that's when we decided to re-introduce them. The adults seemed completely nonplussed, being sleepy. Didn't move much. The pup immediately left to explore the cage, made a run in the large wheel (which was absolutely hilarious, by the way, given that the wheel is 30cm+ in diameter or so, and he's so tiny), ate a bit of their hay. But he was sleepy too, and I think a little cold, and at some point he just stood there on his own, looking very miserable, then he looked up at the adults' sleeping hammock and went there. Warbling and whining ensued, but after about a minute or so they were all comfortably cuddling in the hammock.
This was some hours ago. The adults seemt to have accepted him into their group - both randomly groom him, come to check on what he's doing, etc. Ex-Little Spot sometimes tries to make these mounting attempts, but the pup just barks at him and Ex-Little Spot backs away immediately. I think what we have here is a very dominant little pup (we're told his father is a large, dominant degu, very territorial), and two not-so-dominant adults. I'm also starting to think the pup is simply going through the stress of separation, and can't accept the adults as his new family right away. That said, he seems incredibly mature for 4 weeks. Almost as large as Friedrich & Ex-Little Spot were at 8 weeks. Given how small the original owners' cage was, and how little they knew about degus, it's amazing he knows what to do with apple branches, isn't afraid of us at all and readily takes food from our hands, and seems to be learning really fast. And he's already bossing the adults around - just now he's been sitting in their food bowl, eating their food, and when Friedrich came to investigate, the pup gave him a very stern squeaking - poor Friedrich ran away to another level of the cage.
When all three are together, they squabble more or less continuously, but it's very mild, and there are always moments of calm lying around next to each other. Seems like an improvement from yesterday.
Update: Forgot to mention I've also bathed the pup in the adults' sandbox, some time before putting him in their cage - just in case anybody ever needs advice on a similar situation.
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 29, 2017 16:40:31 GMT
Four weeks is the earliest, some pups nurse up to five weeks. These are really in the barely weaned stage. It is a very young pup yet, which is what causes me great concern. The pup could be stunted in multiple ways in his development, being so early parted from his parents. The story I mentioned, which you would like to read, can be found here deguworld.proboards.com/thread/21378/newborns . . . but just realize this is not the usual reaction of an adult to a pup. PLEASE discuss your thoughts, concerns, or questions with us so that we can help you with all that you are working to accomplish for this new little one. I know that you have a great heart to help and give this young pup the best possible life, Haaj. |
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haaj
Foraging Degu
Posts: 99
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Post by haaj on Nov 29, 2017 16:41:11 GMT
Question for everyone--is this pup old enough to have been fully weaned? Or should they be supplementing his feedings somehow, to make sure he's getting enough to eat and proper nutrition? We checked here, at Degutopia, and with some local experienced degu owners. Three weeks seems to be the bare minimum, four weeks being slightly better. Thanks for this question, though - we've been thinking about how to augment his feed, and I'm glad to see we were on the right track. |
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