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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 21:25:11 GMT
then basically I should not own any chinchillas by your standards. Bare minimum would be the 18x16x18. Enough space to exercise and enrich lives would be 3x2x2 foot. This is not a bare minimum existence. In fact they live good lives with toys, treats, room to move and wall surf, and do what they do best. A 3x2x2 is plenty to lead an enriched life. doubling that has hazards. not just benefits.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 21:44:08 GMT
That's what we are here to discuss - living that isn't a bare minimum existence. We have differing opinions, I'm not saying I'm 100% factually correct or not, I'm not saying you are or aren't either. But as a forum we can't provide guidelines that don't even meet the ones we produce for degus, it would be nonsensical as so far in our research we have found that they exist much like degus in the wild.
What hazards does it have? As long as there's no large drops I'm struggling to see the hazards? Again, it's a matter of your opinion vs mine. I'm not saying you're wrong. Just interesting in your opinion, as I can't find sources that convince me personally that smaller is better.
The *hazards* are there for degus too, as they are for free time. But we recommend if possible permanent runs attached to degu enclosures - we don't put people off the idea as it's excellent for degus. German forums find the same true for chinchillas, many giving 12 hours a day free roam.
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 25, 2017 21:44:36 GMT
We are not trying to insult or condemn your methods, Gizmosisi. I'm sorry that with the exchange of thought, personal understanding/experience, dreamy ideas/ideals, and probing questions, that we are coming across that way. We do expect that things will get heated in this process. We also expect that all of us will find our thinking challenged at some point, if not in many points. In a sense though, this is what we want to do. Challenge the thinking, probe the practices, and learn if there is better that can be done, or is change even needed.
Can I give a personal example? I have fibromyalgia. I've had it all my life. Doctors challenge me about it all the time. It is a figment of my imagination. It is a result of depression, treat the depression you will be all better! It is an ingrained pain response that you need to train your brain out of. It is not hereditary. And so on. It has been treated in multiple different ways . . . and just a week or so ago it was discovered to be a physical condition where the body produces excessive blood vessels, which have excessive sensory/pain nerves. Suddenly I have a "real" thing. That's fifty years of being told I'm imagining it all. Understanding has suddenly changed. Treatment will begin to change. There will still be Doctors that tell me differently because they do not have the new information assimilated yet. But still, what is known today is not what was known six months ago.
Chins have been cared for "like this" for a hundred years. Is there possibly new understanding available now that might change/challenge what has been done?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 22:11:19 GMT
hypoglycemia-especially in younger chins.meaning drops in blood sugars from over doing it. over heating due to peoples inability to buy an aircon, both within the cage, and at playtime. even then, 18 is the max i would ever suggest for playtime. Their skittish nature and simple fear of open spaces. Their amazing ability to get into trouble with everything, and simply not using all of the space but only a select area to pee, and one they prefer to sleep on. when providing a 2 level cage like aventura I personally have found they only use one level anyway, when only one chin, not several are present their skittish nature can be even more obvious. I suggest you ask this question in "ask a breeder-chinchillas" emily to get a fuller idea of what i mean about risks and natural behavior in larger cages and open areas. letslovechinchillas.weebly.com/cage-examples.htmlThese are all 3 x 2 x 2 cages, using single level FN cages I believe. they are full of items, enrichment, above the bare necessities. letslovechinchillas.weebly.com/faq.html
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Post by randomname on Jul 25, 2017 22:12:44 GMT
I'd like to add that welfare/rescue organisations do not support the use of mesh floors, small cages or lone chins. The 5 freedoms enshrined in law en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_freedoms states animals must have ... Freedom to express (most) normal behaviour by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind and freedom from fear and distress by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering. Whilst this can be interpreted in many ways, the RSPCA / courts do not favour small cages, lone animals or mesh floors. This can result in them taking your animals and/or a prosecution for animal cruelty. You may not agree, but that won't help when the RSPCA already have your animals. Also, I have to pipe up about rabbits. I may have less experience with chins, but my background is over 10 years in rabbit welfare. Rabbits are prey animals, but do not benefit in any way from small accommodation. The minimum recommendation size for a standard rabbit is 6ft hutch with permanently attached 8ft run. No rescue will rehome to smaller accommodation. Smaller accommodation has been proved by the Edinburgh vet school to cause muscle wastage in the back legs. My trio has 2 6ft hutches & 2 6ft runs all joined together. They make use of all of it & there was a massive difference to the PTSD bunny's mental health when given more space. They may sleep in burrows (which is what the hutch replicates) but they forage over a distance of 2 football fields a day. The runs replicate that (pretty poorly, but it's better than less space) Large chinchilla cages that have plenty of hiding places replicate more than just the cave, the cave is the nesting box or other hiding place. In prison they often keep prisoners in lockdown 24/7 to prevent riots or beatings etc. In nursing homes they sedate residents with alzheimer's to prevent them hurting themselves or wandering off. It's done because it makes it easier for less staff to care for more people. We can understand why it might be done, but ideally we would just have the resources to provide adequate care. Although i run a sanctuary & money & space are super tight, I would never compromise on space. It's been the single most commented upon thing by visitors & other rescues. I would much prefer to have less animals & give them more space. Obviously you don't just throw them into a huge empty space, but if done gradually & with sensitivity to the needs of the animals then it would not freak them out at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 22:29:26 GMT
degu convert. I have ME. I have been sent to a "infectious disease clinic" does this mean it is infectious? no. they simply treat it with what they currently know and learn via scientific studies and trial and error. For many years, yes, anti depressants have helped some, and not others. mainly due to -its danged depressing being ill. it has not been thought of as a made up illness for many years, only the stigma that has attached all mental health conditions, and unknown conditions. people have also believed for many years anorexia is all made up and attention seeking, infact many still do! even with the science to back them up to otherwise! the treatment remains very much the same as it did within the trial and error period of learning about this illness. commit them, fatten them up. work on why they feel this way. This is still leading to in, and out revolving door due to the nature of the illness. many years ago the cure for ME (back then was hysteria) was "have kids, be a housewife" whilst also noticing those who DO have kids whilst suffering with ME show notable improvement -periodically then a huge crash. trial and error of graded exercise therapy has failed, as will many things in trial and error. Do I discard what has already been trialed and errored in seek of my own treatment and start from the beginning? no, I use what has been learnt at a none scientific level, and seek new ways that have been theorized or not trialed enough. The point is, science is behind this change in medicine. There is no science behind the change in chinchilla care at present, therefore everything has been done for many years based on trial, and error, and what limited is already known. Unless there is a revolutionary breakthrough in studies of the more exotic of the animal species we now call pets, we can only base on the little that was and has been known for many years. and the trial and error of hundreds of owners prior to us. And unless you conduct a study yourself, or put it towards a company that would benefit from such a study, then realistically very little will change outside of this forum. Whilst chins and hedgies worked tirelessly to help folk you will find forums are being less, and less used. For example-did it ever stop cage makers providing cages with nasty plastic dangerous shelves? no. has anything stopped this? even with necropsies pointing to this? no. of course you can only do what you can within the means you have to help others, but tossing a number up in the air based on "feels" rather than "how the facts currently stand" seems odd to me. I am very much a realist rather than a "feels" person in many respects but do not base my care upon a bare minimum need, but that which I feel they need to live, and thrive in. EDIT. I could rant about what the rspca alow.. but best not in a public forum. what i will say, is despite many visits a year, rotten food, cramped cages, and ill animals are fine. i have lost all respect for this organisation, but not the court system. they carry a bully attitude where it is not needed, and where it is they completely disregard the nasty conditions found in some places.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 22:45:46 GMT
I also add, I'm not saying DON'T challenge the originally trial and error, only to listen to what was found out, and agree, or disagree. If the forum decides 12500 is recommended, then fine! But that is a huge amount of space for a "minimum". when someone will be shedding out 100£ minimum on a half decent cage anyway, a few more for a aventura/liberta ect isnt going to make much of a dent.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 22:56:35 GMT
You could say the same about degu care, except there has been massive change and it is outside of this forum. I find forums are being used more and more as people seek help because of their unhappy animals due to bad diets and small cages. It is true in other areas of creature husbandry like the aquatic side.
Plastic cages aren't a death sentence for some rodents, that's why they're still being made. You will also find unless people force companies to change, they won't. We are in talks with P@H as we speak about their guidelines and about the products they sell for degus, including cages and the formulation of their own brand nuggets. We have also reached out to many rescues and told them about ourselves, our forum and our aim. 90% of them took our offer in having our Care Guide, and I know that several have already made changes to their websites.
We are realistic people. We base our recommendations on minimum levels of which we find the animals are happy and thrive, based on evidence. Not just a feeling.
We don't find it a huge amount of space based on evidence, the Aventura only holds 2-3 degus as is. It has to be modified to hold 3-4. They aren't huge cages. Just because they're some of the bigger ones on the market, doesn't make them a huge amount of space. To me it certainly seems it should be the minimum.
I don't like the RSPCA either, but there's nothing wrong with the 5 freedoms.
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Post by randomname on Jul 25, 2017 23:15:58 GMT
Regardless of any personal feelings about the RSPCA the fact remains it is them who prosecute animal cruelty usually. All it takes is an anonymous call to start the ball rolling. The court considers them experts, so the process is weighed against you & is expensive to defend.
The five freedoms are the basis of animal welfare law in the Uk & many European countries. Whether you disagree, agree or think they do not go far enough, you need to be aware of them whether a breeder, pet shop, owner, sanctuary, rescue or even just an informed citizen.
I sleep better at night knowing there is no room for accusation from any angle & my standards are higher than just 'minimum' welfare. My philosophy is about respect for the individual despite having a larger number than usual.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 26, 2017 7:49:42 GMT
I do not agree with kits having issues with too much exercise. I acknowledge others feel different. As I mentioned in Sweden they have that 1*1*1 meter minimum. This is for breeders. They do not have issues with their kits.
What the law states in Denmark for fur farmers (so this could also be seen as a minimum for privat owners) : "§48. Section 1. Chinchillas must have access to an area no smaller than 35cm wide and 40 cm long, and has to live up to these minimum standards:
1) Up to two grown animals: 0,2 m² with a minimum of 0,2 m²for each kg animal (so if you have 2 600g animals you need 0,4 m²)
2) A single adult animal with kits:0,2 m²
3) Kits after they have been weaned: 0,14 m².
Section 2. Minimum height in the accessible area must have a minimum height of 40 cm.
Section 3. If more than two young animals are housed after weaning there must be at least 0,06 m² extra per extra animal, than mentioned in section 1 nr 3"
Here's the info on what must be in the cage: "§44. Section 1: Chinchillas must have platforms which gives them possibility of activation, after kits have been weaned. Chinchillas must also have access to an area where they can rest and hide.
Section 2. There must be nesting material where they are housed and at least 25% of the area needs to have solid flooring." (I do personally not agree with the nesting material. They are not mesters so really no need for this)
This is the bare minimum. Some hobby breeders here buy farmer cages and uses them. Normally they will join a number of cages into one large cages. The farmers have a number of females to one male. This means they have the minimum (or larger) mentioned for each female. The female gets a collar so she can't get out of her cage but as the male has no collar he can get into each female cage via a corridor.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2017 8:53:53 GMT
That is entirely assuming the rspca argree with your cage guidelines which they do not! I would have no issue being investigated by the rspca and fear mongering folk into having massive cages by saying the rspca will remove their pets is cruel. The rspca have next to no abilty to act unless no food water, or withholding of vet care.or long term advice ignoring. The fact any breeder in the uk that sells to shops needs a council licence and they and the rspca hold no issue with small cages completely bursts the bubble. I personally have seen the most questionable of practices on this forum by members. And am utterly shocked at such. But once again-the usa and uk people say backbreeding is dangerous for large litters. "Lets side with the germans". And not question the backbreeding, if any of you even know what this is!! This group has done nothing but ignore my imput. Slag off facebook and pretend to care about what others say whilst have your own agenda just try and subdu anyone that aposes this. The fact youve actually had someone knowledgeable in breeding rescue and pet ownership of chinchillas and spent many many years gathering and questioning as much info as i possibly can only for you to completely disregard it is stupid. I see no point helping or particpating in this group due to you being even worse than facebook groups and run like totaltarianism state just stick a nice face on. When the death casualtys begin to arrive on your own heads be it. Good bye.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 26, 2017 9:12:31 GMT
It is my belief that pets are a priveledge, not a right. If you can't afford or don't have the space to house them all adequately then you shouldn't keep them. If this becomes very difficult when you need to keep large numbers to set up a breeding programme, then don't breed them. It's as simple as that for me for any species of pet.
Obviously there is lots of room for legitimate debate on cage size, but any argument saying 18" cages are OK for an animal that is 20cm or more long loses all credibility with me. I am basing this on common sense.
I'm sorry you feel like we aren't listening to you, I can assure you we are, it feels like you aren't listening to us. You suggest reasons against something which we then suggest mitigation for, but you haven't addressed any of our mitigation suggestions.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 26, 2017 12:14:52 GMT
Ahem, I've been breeding chinchillas since 2005 and have owned since 1997... I do not agree with a lot of your points. I know this works for some breeders, and I really do not see an issue with smaller cages. I do however feel it is an issue getting told it is wrong to have larger cages. Like every breeder I know have a mix of small and large. No one ever experienced the issues you mention. I am I no way saying what you say is incorret, but you are actually questioning what every one else is saying no matter their experience and what they have seen. This is an issue.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2017 13:13:24 GMT
Ahem, I've been breeding chinchillas since 2005 and have owned since 1997... I do not agree with a lot of your points. I know this works for some breeders, and I really do not see an issue with smaller cages. I do however feel it is an issue getting told it is wrong to have larger cages. Like every breeder I know have a mix of small and large. No one ever experienced the issues you mention. I am I no way saying what you say is incorret, but you are actually questioning what every one else is saying no matter their experience and what they have seen. This is an issue. ❤ that's such a reasonable thing to say Darth, and although we aren't exactly for breeders here, I think I can speak on behalf of most of us when I say we are glad you're here. I find you're a very reasonable middle ground in all of this extremity despite being a breeder! I'm glad you haven't seen any of those issues with larger cages, because none of us have either. Thanks for being here lovely, we are learning a lot from you.
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Post by randomname on Jul 26, 2017 14:32:34 GMT
Whilst I acknowledge my chinchilla knowledge needs more input, I can tell you that for 30 years I have studied animal welfare & rights. I am au fait with the laws surrounding this for good reason. If an explanation of such laws is worrisome & is interpreted as scare mongering then I am concerned that the legal rights & responsibilities have become secondary to something else. I can only state the law, process & outcomes - how that is interpreted is entirely down to the individual. As I stated, RSPCA (& by extension the courts, read their successful prosecutions in the UK in the last 5 years) do not support mesh floor cages & they specify cages that are 'large enough' for the animal. As I clearly stated this is open to interpretation however by the time you're arguing this in court, the RSPCA have had your animals months. This information is for all people responsible for animals & was not aimed at any individual. I apologise if any one took it personally. If anyone wants more information on people who have been in this situation, google The SHG (self help group) & start there. We supported a lady who had 3 cats taken from her for being old. By the time she won her court case, one had been put to sleep. She got the other 2 back in terrible condition. I will gloss over the inferences & insults, but am curious as to what "shocking practices" are being done here? The comment goes on to talk about breeding. None of us breed (except Darth) so that makes no sense. I don't think any of us even care about breeding outside understanding the colours & how they come about. I think I can live a long happy life if no one mentions breeding ever again! I totally agree with moletteuk, having an animal is not a right, it's a responsibility. We need to be able to discuss aspects of this without resorting to throwing our toys out of the pram when we're not happy. If we feel frustrated, we need to realise so is everyone else. We all have areas of valuable knowledge to share & discuss, it's a shame when one person feels their knowledge does not need expanding as they fail to listen to others. Darth is also right - & she displays this attitude in her interactions on here. Whilst talking to you, I always feel listened to & that we discuss things rationally. We may not agree, we may even secretly be horrified (lol) but we always manage to stay friendly & to listen to each other. We also seem to have mutual respect, which I feel has been sorely lacking in other interactions on this thread. Emily - you're right, I think we all value Darth's input & love interacting socially with her too. She's a joy to have around with her silly sense of humour & love of word play
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 26, 2017 14:47:37 GMT
To try and get back om topic. I helped with the recommended measurements of chinchilla cages for one of our chinchilla associations when we worked out the caresheet. I believe the measurements was 100*60*60 or 100*80*80 cm. I can look it up if it is of any interest. Anyhow we did stress this is guidelines to a cage. Not the absolute truth. It says some thing like "it is possible to care for chinchillas in other ways stated in this care sheet, with out it being an issue" poorly translated. I do like this way of saying things though. It says we think this and this but acknowledge others keep them in other ways and this can be fine too.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 26, 2017 17:04:25 GMT
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