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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 17:40:14 GMT
No, 12 inches is for degus.
We recommend 16 inches for chinchillas.
The running space is made up of full levels, standard is 50cm deep, 100cm long for each level for commercially available cages.
My Alfie has an Aventura that has 12,500 square centimetres from a small cage, he loves it. Bounding about loving all the space.
Degus live in burrows in the wild but travel fair distances to get food. The cage needs to replicate at least some space, 100cm allows degus to get up to full speed which is why it's the minimum requirement in length. Chinchillas probably need close to twice that to get up to full speed, this allows them to use all their muscles.
If cages are as small as you say standard across the board, surely playtime is necessary for them to be allowed to run, jump as they wish, get up to full speed and use all their muscles?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 17:50:42 GMT
phew lol So, a pair requires a whole aventura/liberta to themselves? The thickets cage was designed specifically for a pair, 3/2 foot. this was not a basic judgement call but one of that of a large uk breeder who looks at thier needs and how the reacted to different size cages. as a whole they thrive better in my opinion in a smaller half a aventura. Chinchillas do a unique movement rather than run, they wall surf. they cannot run-they hop! they will prefer if allowed, to surf across 4 walls and bounce off, you do not need to get to full speed to use all your muscles. Why do we walk dogs? mental stimulation, physically walking a dog will only increase their endurance and need it to be exercised more and more and more to see the benefit. Due to their ability and love of wall surfing, this put a lot of question into certain cages that use horizontal and vertical bars as feet slip through and get caught. DO NOT mistake bounding round and having fun, with running around scared and unsure where to settle due to fear. what us humans see as "Having fun" a lot of the time is running in fear. Same with playtime- this week alone i have seen 3 missing chins, one electrocuted by wire, 2 stood on, and a dog "got hold" of the chin. THREE folks giving playtime when it was too hot, one giving playtime when it was but a baby and go into hypoglycemic shock... the risks with playtime are endless. unless you can totally chin proof a space, it is not worth it. The only time they would run in the wild, is to escape predators.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 25, 2017 18:09:36 GMT
In Sweden they are trying to make it into law that chinchilla cages should be no less than 1*1*1 meters. To be a breeder in Sweden you must fulfill these measurements for chinchillas to get accepted into their association. Not saying this is the right way to go (I personally do not like the vast majority of the cages I've seen with these mesurements, as they do not take into consideration the animals can misjudge a jump), just saying the idea of what is best varies immensly.
As for playtime, here we always encurage to only let the animals out into rooms with nothing dangerous for them to gnaw on, like a hallway or a bathroom. I do know some who let the chinchillas roam the entire house like house rabbits. I think her animals are in their late teens. Very healty and no injuries to speak of.
I do not believe playtime is an absolut must, but I do see the benefits in it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 18:20:30 GMT
1x1x1 seems more realistic, but still equates to 1m of floor space. I do not count height, for the simple reason of-its useless unless ledges are there. a 1x .5 floor space, with ledges/platforms seems more realistic. I understand there is a big difference between what breeder, and pet owners do. but larger the cage is not always better. And if comfortable in the larger space, they tend not to use all of it. unfortunately I have also heard of chins free roam, only to "vanish" and come to me asking for a new chin (which was denied for obvious reasons) Whilst bathrooms are handy, the are full of bacteria! and personally see a playpen as a better option.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 18:22:37 GMT
A pair of chinchillas in our opinion is a bit of a squeeze in an aventura, as those are kind of our degu recommendations.
All of those risks are also present for degus, but imo the risks outweigh the advantages.
Both are incredibly intelligent species who need a lot of mental stimulation.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 18:23:40 GMT
What is wrong with a hallway?
I am honestly really struggling to understand how smaller cages could possibly be better.
If bigger cages utilise the space well, how is it not better?
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 25, 2017 19:31:17 GMT
I don't understand either, I don't see why any risks can't be dealt with. I think all captive pets deserve enough space to show a range of normal movement behaviour and social behaviour, otherwise I don't see the point in keeping them.
The 12,500sqcm is 1.25 square metres, but that is total shelf space, not footprint, and only large shelves count. So 3 degus need a minimum of 1.5 square metres, and for that we generally suggest 3 areas of 100x50cm, which would fit within a height of about 120cm. If you count the half shelves then a full Aventura/Explorer meets our minimum guidelines for 3 degus. Virtually everyone on the forum that upgrades has a kind of eureka moment when they realise how their degus are meant to behave. What you put in there is important too, they need plenty of hiding places and cover and preferably a wheel each, places to hang out, free areas to run, places for a couple of hay piles and forage piles, we don't usually have any difficulty making use of the space.
I wouldn't be without our permanent playpen setup, it makes such a difference to my relationship with my degus to be able to hang out in there with them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 19:32:31 GMT
As i explained. large spaces create fear, due to the open space. And often incites panic. learning their behavior and removing human emotions-do not mistake running round like nutters for "fun" when it is "fear". most (not all I add) prey species do not run, unless they are spooked. A small area they can safely establish as their personal territory.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 19:41:04 GMT
They aren't large open spaces though? The cages aren't anyway.
I know degus aren't chinchillas but we've come across no degu that's been scared of bigger cages, and degus love to run, they'll run from the top to the bottom extremely quickly.
If chinchillas didn't like to run, they wouldn't use wheels surely? The cages aren't large open spaces because of the levels, plus any hanging toys, hammocks, ledges and beds.
I also don't know about your remark re prey animals. Rabbits run about when happy, degus love to run, rats will happily totter about and run on wheels.. just to name a few.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 25, 2017 19:41:29 GMT
A large space doesn't have to be all open, you can provide more surface area to live on without it being any more open than a small cage. Lots of us on here build wooden cages with multiple leves, so they have solid sides and back, no long drops, plenty of hiding places, you can reach everywhere to clean. Degus certainly run for fun, I presume chinchillas run in their wheels for fun?
edit - cross post with Emily
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 19:56:43 GMT
Of all the rabbits I have owned, they have not run when happy. Only when I spooked inside their runs. Ditto with guinea pigs. rats, scurry, and are predators in many respects aswell as prey. each is different in what it does for fun. yes, they need space to move, but 12500? that is an unrealistic amount for a basic requirement. When happy, a chin will popcorn.rabbits will pop. guineas will pop. And ever had a chin where soon as you open the door they go on the wheel and run? fear. ever had a chin that's nervous in a large cage and runs 100 gram of its weight off due to the lots of levels large cage? ever noticed how a chin will sit at the very top perch, and stay there on "Lookout" and only go down for food? unless comfortable. Wooden cages are a whole new issue, fur fungus! youd have to scrap the WHOLE cage if you got fur fungus-its spores live in the wood and reinfect the animal. Trust me when i say i had to scrap every bit of wood in over 20 cages and disinfect for a month-aswell as treat those infected, and those not infected! and its far more common than people realize in chins. Chins are not degus, you cannot expect requirements to just be larger because chins are larger than goos.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 20:03:33 GMT
I don't understand how it's at all unrealistic? We all manage it? I've seen plenty of relaxed prey animals running about. It doesn't have to be at sprint pace. Alfie has gone from a cage which is very small (in my opinion) to the 12500 and he's never sat at the top on look out because he's uncomfortable, despite being in a totally new environment. I don't think anyone else with chins in cages here has had issues either. The German forums all advocate enclosures and not cages of any kind, why would they do that if not for benefit to the animal? Nobody said chins are degus, but no animals deserve to be in small cages, when naturally they have access to very large areas indeed, such as rabbits, rats, guinea pigs, degus, hamsters. German owners seem to have the polar opposite opinion to you, that chinchillas enjoy running and should have room sized enclosures to live in, due to the way they live in the wild. I find it so odd how husbandry can vary to the polar opposites due to location! It would be great to read some papers that observe that chinchillas don't move about much in the wild, or have very small covering grounds. I've been looking this afternoon, I can't seem to find much on it however.
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 25, 2017 20:05:54 GMT
A question . . . are wild chins similar in prefered territory to ground squirrels or to tree squirrels? (Not saying they ARE squirrels, just want to know what kind of habitat surface they prefer to live on.) In this habitat, what amount of surface area do they typically cover/travel in their hunt for appropriate food sources? Degus cover a lot of ground each day, are more similar to ground squirrels in their behaviors and habitats, with at least one big exception that they are social animals and live in colonies. (I'm sure there are several other exceptions) Do chins live in habitats similar to mountain sheep/goats where there is much territory covered, but the ground is rocky and steeply inclined? Are they something like the pika? OK . . . some very small reading on Pika's and there is so far no description of how far they typically range in a day. I asked the above question because I want to know what the instinctual demand for movement and behavior in wild chins, and is still going to be present to some degree within domesticated chins. As pointed out by Moletteuk, the changes in behaviors of degus that have been moved out of the thickets cage, or cages of comparable size, into the large cages we recommend, is huge and is a change wonderful to behold. Eight years ago there was a member on here that moved her chins into cages that were 3'X 3'X 6'. Which I realize is pretty close to what you were talking about earlier, but twice as tall. She saw very encouraging changes in behavior and character. deguworld.proboards.com/post/34613/thread I know this is only anecdotal, but I think it is worth some consideration.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 20:12:40 GMT
Once again, German pages. have you looked at any of the UK or usa pages and their recommendations? And no, you expressed your chin is bounding about, showing the opposite which is also a sign of stress if interpreted wrongly. "The Veterinary Center for Birds and Exotics says the minimum cage size for an adult chinchilla should be at least 3 feet by 2 feet by 2 feet. If you keep more than one chinchilla in a cage -- which chins prefer, as they as social creatures -- make sure it has a minimum of 2 square feet of floor space per pet." It is unrealistic, because you are expressing that is the minimum. which whereby means, no cage on the market exceeds this minimum requirement. Chinchilla guide says "Chinchilla cages should be all metal, since they will gnaw their way out of a wooden cage. They need a quite large cage so they have room to run around and climb. A typical or better the minimum size for a cage for 1-2 chinchilla should be 24”-18”-24”."
Another source... "The minimum size cage is 16″ x 18″ x 16″" blue cross say 1 x 1 x 1 m...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 20:16:32 GMT
and as they live in collonys in the wild of 14-100 animals then by your reasoning it is also wrong to keep a single, or less than 14, due to the want to make it as natural as possible.
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 25, 2017 20:37:53 GMT
I recognise that clearly there is no way we can replicate the wild within our homes. Degus will cover several kilometers each day, patrolling their territory and gathering food . . . our homes would have to enclose entire acreages to do that, LOL. We cannot move mountains into our homes. We cannot have colonies of 10 - 25 animals all in one cage. I truly get that. But . . . dreaming of what would be the best and most reasonable to offer . . . what would that look like? If we have a passion of nocturnal animals, we would ensure that they have appropriate places to hide and sleep during daylight hours. If we have tropical fish, warm salt water at the very least. If we have horses, acres of pasture free of plants that are lethal to them. If we have birds, cages that allow for flight and lots of enrichment depending on the bird species.
We know, and are very sympathetic to the fact that people must work within their financial and spacial means. We know that people come face to face with conflicts within their personal and daily lives. We know that people frequently get pets to help them face the challenges of life. We know that pet stores give out very poor information. We know that many vets know only their preferred animals of focus and are not necessarily up to date on our animal species. Our aim is to know as much as we can about the natural needs of our animals, to dream about how meeting those needs might be done within the context of the above things, and then to go about gently and kindly helping our members to learn with us, adjusting as we go.
This is a quest for information that is not just from a long standing industry of owners and breeders. It is super challenging to dig out and find research that is for the sole purpose of knowing and understanding the animal for what it is, and not what we want it to be. So we are gathering info from where we can. We hope to gather informed people as well. And then we hope to paw through it all, digest it, discuss it, tease out the good from the bad, probably have long somewhat heated moments in there, and then have the beginnings of a guideline that we as a forum feel confident and good about putting forth. If that moves chinchilla husbandry forward somewhat, that will also be excellent.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 20:46:38 GMT
On a side note. They are not nocturnal. They are Crepuscular. Meaning dawn and dusk. Very right there degu convert. But setting a minimum that is not their actual minimum sets expections of humans too high and yes-putting a chin in too large of a cage does freak them out. Whilst everyone wants to give more than what is needed, it is your forums personal recomendation, not minimum needs for the animal. They do not nest or burrow for their home but treat the cage as their whole home.
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 25, 2017 20:55:32 GMT
Degus do likewise . . . and if allowed to roam freely (whether by accidental escape or intentional access) will gladly claim the whole household as their territory. I assume the same of Chins.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 21:14:32 GMT
actually no-they will find the smallest gap imaginable to claim. pipe ducts, under the sofa, under the bed... and stay there. only coming out to find food, or the beloved dust bath. Unless they find a better hiding spot. Those who have lost chins (and gosh there's been a few in the groups this week!) know where they are... but cannot get them. Tempt them out. Or anything. simply leave food, camera, cage door open and hope they come out whilst ordering a live trap. One lady confessed to 2 weeks of the chin in her pipeworks, not choosing a new spot to "live". they do not comfortably wander round a room or house, except when being exceptionally brave, or slowly worked up to larger areas of space. Which makes sense about their natural habitat, living in crevices of rocks and only venturing out to forage, or dust. And safety in numbers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 21:15:42 GMT
Yes I've looked at all of the UK and US groups recommendations. Bouncing about jumping on ledges and so forth, nibbling away at some hay and forage, not darting about or breathing quickly, or hiding away in corners. It's not nice at all to keep animals in captivity really. But we do and so we should enrich their lives and make it as good as possible. I've been browsing the web all afternoon and found that they live in pretty large areas and run many kilometres much like degus, and climb trees and in rock crevices (not like degus). Yes it's better to keep in at least pairs, which is what we state for degus as they also live in large groups. We set minimum guidelines that provide a healthy happy life, not a bare minimum existence. If humans cannot provide a certain level of care, then we must question if the creature is for them, as we do with some owners. We would question those who kept horses in large stables all day - they'll exist, and live, eat, sleep.. but not live a rewarding horse life. We aren't looking to know the baseline needs for chinchilla existence, but the baseline we can set for happy healthy enjoyed enriched chinchilla experience - then everything above and beyond that is to be praised. You could keep degus or rabbits in a tiny cage and provide a basic diet - they wouldn't probably die. But that's not what we're talking about or asking for. I think that's the problem here with this discussion honestly. I don't think we are talking about the same thing. I think maybe you see that now? We are looking to improve the chinchilla side of our forum and I don't think the majority of us (in my opinion) would be happy providing guidelines that were based on bare minimum requirements. Obviously we are talking about pet owners, rather than breeders. I know there's differences in how we operate due to this.
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