lucy
Warbling Degu
Posts: 29
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Post by lucy on May 17, 2017 8:02:16 GMT
Hi to degulovers! I've read all the introduction/fighting/sounds guide I could get my hands on, yet our girls get me puzzled. Background: - We have two girls (sisters, 9 months) Apple and Pear.
- We got new girl, Mike, month ago. Someone brought her to the pet shop - we don't know her age but she is not a baby, probably not even a teenager. The only thing we know is that she was brought there because she was aggressive to other goos. And we adre aware that this might not work out at all, but didn't want to let her stay alone if there is a chance.
- We needed to split the cage and decided to build a new one - 4 floors, 7200 sq.cm CARA each. The middle shelf has 40x40cm mesh area - Girls occupy the top two, Mike the bottom two.
We are three weeks in the introduction process - everyone seemed happy about the new cage, Mike even started running around. But the more dominant of the Girls, Pear, started being aggressive, especially around the mesh area and when Mike was in sight. She wouldn't let Apple to even get close to the mesh, which is something I don't understand. Is this possibly any kind of protective behaviour (like "Go away I can handle this!")? Or is it more likely dominant thing (like "Only I have the right to talk to this new neighbour!"). Mike tried to make contact over the mesh but I can't tell (not even with the help of Degutopia sound guide) if it was "I want to play" or "I want to fight" kind of thing. All got worse when we switched them. Pear started to be nervous and wanted to fight with Apple all the time. Mike started being scared and even after we switched them back, she sits on the bottom of the cage all the time. She seems lonely to me. Thing is - Mike looks depressed and I am starting to be worried. Girls look angry and nervous and I don't even know if it's because they hate each other of because they wan't to be friends. Is it possible that Mike is sad because she is lonely (even when she can see the Girls over the mesh)? Is there anything I can do to support the process so they can be together, maybe that would make Mike happier degu. Sorry for such a long post, thank you if you've read this far. Any kind of idea is appreciated! Lucy
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Post by adsh on May 17, 2017 8:10:29 GMT
I think having them above/below can create problems, might help to split it vertically if possible
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 8:14:59 GMT
Hi! Welcome Switching as in putting the degus in different parts of the cage? You shouldn't do this - it scares them because they're in someone else's territory - then when they get back they smell another non-friend degu has been in their territory and it can heighten aggression. Have you been swapping sand baths and substrate on a daily basis? This is good to help them get to know each other. Can I see a picture of your cage to understand the setup a little better? They can all meet on an equal level right? All being in the same cage can be problematic. Them being able to meet on the same level at a mesh divider is good, but still having them be able to be above/below can create a false sense of hierarchy - the ones one the higher levels are more important kind of thing. But being able to meet on 1 level at a mesh divider so they're face to face and able to see and smell is good. Introductions can take a very long time - months and sometimes a year or two. Three weeks is very little time, so try not to worry yet. I'd been trying for 10 months and eventually decided my girls just don't like other degus - they only like each other. So I rescued two boys and neutered and made boy/girl pairings for my goos that weren't being accepted by my other two. Give it time, make sure you're doing all you can. Do you still have your old cage? Could you put the new girl in there and put the old cage right next to the new cage so they all have their own territory and nobody feels like their space is being invaded? X
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lucy
Warbling Degu
Posts: 29
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Post by lucy on May 17, 2017 8:44:40 GMT
Hi, thank you for such quick responses! Photo of the cage (right after they moved in, so looks sort of empty ) We have built the cage (i say cage, but it more like a wardrobe) accordingly to the degutopia guide, where they say: Now I wonder what is the right position of horizontal split (because of the example with cages side-by-side not being good, I sort of figured they mean horizontal mesh ). Switching is also mentioned in the guide, but they really seem stressed about it, so we will start swapping substrate, we are already swapping the sandbath. We still have the old cage, but neither of them allows to pass smells or sounds effectively between them (the old one is also a box with glass front), which might be a problem? We will try to rethink one of the shelves and make it shared, but divided. I know it will take a long time, I am just worried mostly about Mike, because she looked like she is getting used to us and the new enviroment and now she sort of backed up and doesn't want to leave her nest. Thank you! Lucy
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 9:31:14 GMT
Lucy unfortunately there are a lot of out of date sources on the internet. We don't recommend a horizontal split because they can't interact properly and it creates a false sense of hierarchy as one is on top of the other and in a very visible way. Cages being side by side is perfectly fine, and works well, there's nothing wrong with it - they get to interact at multiple areas, they have their own space each. Switching really isn't recommended and is very outdated - as is degutopia in some areas unfortunately. I'm glad you've come here to get correct advice! Okay the side by side won't be any good really if it's two glass boxes. It works well with wire metal cages. You need to move the divide so it is vertical on one level, a way in so they can both sit comfortably on said level and interact. It's like being together but having the safety of the mesh to protect them - that being said you need to make sure your mesh is 2 pieces, spaced a few cm apart otherwise you'll potentially end up with fingers and toes and tails going missing and some bitten noses lol. If they're on the same level with a vertical divide they can sleep together next to the mesh, talk to each other, smell each other and verbally communicate and have physical body language being seen - whilst sitting there feeling like equals. Rather than one peering down on the other being like "ha ha I'm more important than you" 😋. Don't worry too much about Mike. If you get the divider sorted things should improve. Don't forget to swap bedding and sand baths daily Your cage looks lovely by the way - well done! Have you checked they're all 100% girls? We have a sexing guide for you to use. You can also ask us if you aren't too sure.
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Post by moletteuk on May 17, 2017 9:42:20 GMT
Hi Lucy, welcome to the forum Over many years we have surveyed what other degu sites recommend regarding introductions and put that together with experience of our forum members to come up with what we find to be the best strategy in many cases, but the thing about introductions is that they are all different and there are no guarantees. Guidelines are just a starting point, and the most important thing is that you spend time watching your degus and try to interpret what they are telling you figure out what to try next. I will say that swapping the degus between cages we find nearly always confuses the degus and increases aggression and just last week we had another case where it caused trouble between the existing pair that had previously been fine. The 100% success rate claim by degutopia sounds like nonsense to me, nobody gets a 100% success rate for introductions. We can help you try to figure out your situation and dynamic from your degus and help you avoid pitfalls, but quite often you have to try different things and sort of spiral your way towards discovering the correct procedure. Degus are complicated! But the more dominant of the Girls, Pear, started being aggressive, especially around the mesh area and when Mike was in sight. She wouldn't let Apple to even get close to the mesh, which is something I don't understand. Is this possibly any kind of protective behaviour (like "Go away I can handle this!")? Or is it more likely dominant thing (like "Only I have the right to talk to this new neighbour!"). I think you are right here, maybe even both interpretations. All got worse when we switched them. Pear started to be nervous and wanted to fight with Apple all the time. Mike started being scared and even after we switched them back, she sits on the bottom of the cage all the time. She seems lonely to me. For all their intelligence, we see this often with swapping sides, the two degus that know each other suddenly both smell of the new degu and it somehow totally confuses them and can lead to aggression. It's really important that you don't jeapordise the relationship between Apple & Pear, but they should settle down again back in their own side. The new cage looks brilliant. I would suggest adding some more ventilation though, the holes in the sides would ideally be much larger and it's usual to put a very large mesh covered hole in the top for ventilation. I also get confused about the terminology with horizontal and vertical separations for degus - do they mean the degus are horizontal relative to each other or is the divide itself horizontal?? Anyway, we very much reccommend the other type of divide where the barrier is vertical and the degus can meet on the same level. You should be able to make some modifications to sort this out. You can make a frame and staple a layer of mesh on both sides so you have two layers with a gap inbetween so the degus can't chew tails and toes through the mesh. Use brackets or something similar to fix it in the cage. If the degus are taking ages to settle again, you make the barrier solid for a while or just have a small corner that they can see through. Try not to worry about Mike for now, you are doing your best to provide friends for her and that might take a while. Have you checked she is definitely female, and Apple and Pear too? You could try distracting and entertaining Mike and the pair more with lots of natural branches and twigs to chew and more types of hay and forage. Forage is important for healthy degus and if you can provide a constant supply of different types (tree leaves, herbs, safe garden and meadow plants, different grasses, flowers etc) it enables them to graze in a natural way and is good for them mentally too, it should reduce stresss. ..edit - sorry for repetition with emily, I was still writing when she posted.
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lucy
Warbling Degu
Posts: 29
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Post by lucy on May 17, 2017 11:08:37 GMT
Thanks everyone! I didn't expect such quick replies! I am at work now, will reply when I get back home, just wanted to say thank you Lucy
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Post by deguconvert on May 17, 2017 15:34:52 GMT
Hello, Lucy! Welcome to the forum!!
You've had great replies and there is only one thing I would like to add. Degus have a rather prolonged adolescent/young adult phase, that extends from age six months up to the age of eighteen months. During this time degus are flush with hormones, and with the two things very much connected to those hormones, dominance and mating rights. Mating rights may have more to do with males, but females are not totally absent from this conflict. Conflict and unrest can be the mildest expression of this time, all out war, bloodshed, and fatality the worst. Not all degus take the full year to traverse this tempestuous time, but some do. Not all start at the age of six months, some wait until they are well past their 12 months age before becoming inflamed. The vast majority do go through some version of it. Your original two are into this stage, and Mike make be in or through it, as her actual age is unknown but she doesn't appear to be less than a year of age. With this in mind, it is possible that you will face greater hurdles, but to be honest, introductions are more often full of hurdles not matter the age of the degus.
That doesn't mean they are impossible by any means though, so don't be discouraged. The best thing for you to know is that there is no true timeline that you have to adhere to for getting them together. There are the things we hope for . . . such as we are moving and it would be nice to have them all together before we are in the new house . . . but if you can let go of such thoughts and just believe it will happen when they are ready, you will have a lot more peace about it. Introductions take lots of time, many small and slow steps, a BOAT load of patience, and unrelenting but gentle determination. We are here to cheer you on, and we will laugh, cry, and groan with you. We all have very active senses of humor, so don't be shy to jump in with us!!
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 17:29:27 GMT
For example:
I've split mine up into Boy&Girl Boy&Girl Girl&Girl.
As the girl & girl hate everyone. But that doesn't mean I don't have hope to have them eventually not hate one of the girl&boy pair to make a group of 4. They might seriously mellow out.
We definitely have the best sense of humour! I don't know what I'd do without the lovely people here ❤
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lucy
Warbling Degu
Posts: 29
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Post by lucy on May 17, 2017 20:48:10 GMT
Hi and thanks again everyone for sharing your ideas, so much new information! I feel way much better now, really, thank you I was just worried that we are doing something completely wrong. We checked all of them when we got them and they are girls, even Mike, despite the name (which by the way was my boyfriend's idea, because she is a boxer like Mike Tyson ). It's interesting, that they get confused when they smell like other degu, but it makes complete sense. First I thought this was actually the point of switching, to make them smell differently so they get used to it. Anyway it seems exactly like what happened to our Girls - they used to be perfectly OK together. Or its hormones. Or both. We are already planning how to adjust the cage, yayy! From the beginning we planed to remove the mesh part after introduction (and use that space for vertical playarea - tiny shelves and branches to climb on), so we can do that now and also add double-sided mesh to the third shelf, so girls can meet there. I can't wait until weekend! Also we will try to figure out some ventilation hole at the top. They already have the cage more furnished than in the picture, but we are always thinking, what we're gonna do next. This weekend that will be flying saucer. There is some new toy pretty much every weekend (also reason why to build a huge cage, right? So we can play making lots of toys ), so I guess that is a bit of distraction. As for the leaves and bits to eat, we just ordered SAB degu mix and also SAB seed mix - when we try to feed them with fresh leaves or veg, they don't seem very excited. Right now I'm looking at Apple making "Are you serious" face over a celery stalk... What a long post! I'll keep updating how things are going, thank you! Lucy
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Post by moletteuk on May 18, 2017 19:29:28 GMT
That all sounds good, keep and touch and tell us how you get on, sometimes it helps just to talk it through I'm sure you are going to love the big cage, there is so much you can do with a big space like that. Have you seen some of our ideas threads? You can make a big metal wheel out of a cake tin and skateboard wheel, fancy ceramics and plantpots are good like 'strawberry' pots, and of course lots of natural branches. I hope they like the SAB mixes, I'm sure they will enjoy all the new flavours, most degus enjoy dried forage better than fresh forage or fresh vegetables. You could try drying some of the your veg offcuts, dried celery leaves are usually liked, brocolli stalk etc.
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lucy
Warbling Degu
Posts: 29
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Post by lucy on May 18, 2017 21:53:13 GMT
Hi! Thank you for the tips moletteuk. We already have the wheel on the top floor, Girls love it and we are planning to make one more We couldn't wait until weekend and worked on the cage today. We removed the left part of the big shelf, added a mesh at the new end of it in the middle and used that vertical space for branches and tiny shelves to jump on. So girls can now meet on the same shelf. Mike seems actually pretty relaxed about it, Apple turned into hysterical mesh-climbing Spidergoo, Pear is not allowed to get close to the mesh: I would say it is a progress. Now we know where we stand - Apple is definitely not trying to be friendly and Mike doesn't seem as such boxer as we've been told. And also seems much more "alive" than last week which really makes me happy Lucy
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Post by Bexi87 on May 19, 2017 20:17:56 GMT
I LOVE your cage! It's fantastic and your girls look gorgeous. I think it's also worth bearing in mind that Mike has had a lot of changes to get used to recently - even hearing the new sounds of your home/street will take a while for her to get used to. I would keep an eye on their interaction through the mesh and see how they all manage. Unfortunately they don't like to follow our plans for them so it could take a long while to get them together but don't lose hope!
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Post by moletteuk on May 20, 2017 10:20:46 GMT
The cage modifications look great and the divider also looks nice and secure. If meeting at the divide continues to cause aggravation, then it might be worth blocking off some of it so there is only quite a small meeting place. The thing you are looking for at this stage is for them to start ignoring each other.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 12:30:31 GMT
How are things going?
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lucy
Warbling Degu
Posts: 29
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Post by lucy on May 21, 2017 11:28:52 GMT
Hi everyone! Thank you for cage compliments! I thing it is going well. The mesh is not that interesting any more. Apple calmed down a lot and mostly doesn't care about Mike. Pear seems to be friendly when shee meets Mike over the mesh, they chat (it sounds like birds without any obvious aggressive behaviour). And Mike started to nap in the corner by the mesh but only when we are not paying attention to them. We also gave her Girls old wheel and she now considers it her safe place - she runs it, she sleeps there and she runs there when she wants to hide I was wondering if it's OK to start face to face introductions with just Pear and Mike, because she seems much more friendly to her? Or should we just wait a few more weeks? Thank you, Lucy
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lucy
Warbling Degu
Posts: 29
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Post by lucy on May 21, 2017 12:50:48 GMT
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Post by moletteuk on May 22, 2017 14:28:21 GMT
Yes, that's a great cage blog I think it's best to wait until Apple is completely unconcerned about Mike, you have to go at the pace of the most difficult relationship, so wait and do intros with all three. If you let Pear meet Mike without Apple it might upset Apple.
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Post by deguconvert on May 23, 2017 15:43:02 GMT
I agree with Moletteuk's advice. Best to wait until you see better indications from Apple.
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lucy
Warbling Degu
Posts: 29
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Post by lucy on May 23, 2017 23:14:43 GMT
Thank you, we will wait then In the meantime, big news from the cage. We have witnesed quite a scene (Girls don't fight much, so for us, it was a scene) last night - Pear just sat on their house, squeeked on Apple everytime she got close and turned back on her, when she got up on the house. And when Apple tried to interact, Pear showed her her intimate parts and Apple, well, sniffed them. Also we'we seen lot of peeing on Pear (and just about anything in the cage). No boxing or mounting, though. And today we'we seen Pear riding on Apple's back without any resistance, so I would say, she is trying to take over Apple's alpha position. And seems quite succesfull. They seem to get "dominance-showing", when we do substrate switching, but so far it's been quite peacefull, so we keep doping that. Have a nice day Lucy
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