Zenaida's Enclosure Build

[Deleted]

Mine bar chew and they are in a 5 floor cage just the two of them.

I think some just like doing repetitive behaviour, but then this to me sounds alarming, as repetitive behaviour can be due to stress..

[zenaida]

After a good night's sleep I'm a little more reasonable.

Yes misscatafer, I am concerned deep down that they want more space. Right now, it isn't possible to give them more, except for maybe doing my big play pen idea so that they can have more outside time. I personally feel like playpen time right now is only more frustrating to them because they only get a small space upgrade. Also because they cause so much trouble, I can only do it if they have a human right in there with them to keep them from chewing things they shouldn't.

They tend to focus their chewing near the openings of the doors. There are a couple of small dents near the ventilation holes. The sole exception is last night I found a spot that they went to town on a back corner. It is right at their main pee corner so I don't know it that is related. Even though they only really chew at the doors, I'm still alarmed because I've noticed that they have started to chew at the edges of the patches. I can see the writing on the wall that the more I patch the more they will just move their chewing over so they can keep going.

I think they are definitely trying to escape. Maybe it is unhappy, or given their history it might just be curiosity and determination. When I asked the rescuer about their history, she said that they had initially been posted on craigslist as snake food, but another lady found them and gave them a home. This lady had to forfeit them to my rescuer because they "chewed their way out of a wood cage". The rescuer was mildly concerned that this crew was going in a wood cage again, but when we talked about it, I expressed my willingness to stay on top of patching. I do still want to stay on top of patching; the timing of this is just poor and it frustrates me. Granted I don't know anything about the size of the other wooden cage. I saw them in the rescuer's metal cage and mine is about double that size. I don't know anything about stress behaviors they might have had there except that they were not fighting.

I suppose I should note that I sometimes I feel like chewing is "just their hobby". Even when they come out for play pen time, it is all about the teeth. They chew everything and anything and will focus their chewing on the structures, so they go for the sides of the cage and for the piano hinge on the board. There's about 4 small drill holes on the board and one place where they stripped a layer of plywood off, those areas get special chewing attention every time we do playpen. This is why I can't give them playpen time with distance supervision.

I will order parrot toys right away. That has been suggested to me in the past and I just "put it off for later" at the time. Well it seems later is now. I don't want to take chewing from them. We give them sticks, I put lots of wood "furniture" in there, I even designed that whole bracket system at the bottom door because they like to chew there. I feel like this is similar to working with my kids: "chew this, not that".

I'm also going to try a re-arrange of the cage toys. I have to admit I have my "favorite" places for their stuff now and I probably don't move it often enough. I'll put in some fresh cardboard and shake up the whole landscape, maybe that will help too.

What do people think about covering the walls in mesh? I'm probably going to do it today because I just need to not worry about escapes until I can get this figured out permanently.

[misscatafer]

Some new toys and a shuffle of the home can only be a good thing for them the mesh should contain the chewing, I know it doesn't look the nicest but at least it will be secure! Mine chew the sides of the wood in my play pen too where we stupidly drilled holes for rope which we no longer use haha. We don't have to sit in there with them, as all of the boards are secured and it would takes ages for them to get though, but if I hear too much chewing going on a sharp bang on the side usually works, or it indicates to me that they have had enough and want their taxi ride back to the cage. Don't forget that you have given your girls a wonderful home compared to where they were with lots of love and attention, and they do sound like they love go chew!

[winic1]

Instead of tile and grout, what if you cover the walls in glass? Preserve the look, but make it inescapable? Have no idea what the cost of glass cut to size, is. You could hold it up with strips of trim, like quarter round (which would of course need replacing on occasion as it got chewed) or with metal edging, so it wouldn't need much glue, or only a simple, safe, non-toxic, non-fuming, glue. Wouldn't need any kind of grout or sealant on the walls, just butt the pieces tightly together.

As for tile, getting large pieces instead of the traditional small squares, would remove most of the need for grout. But, it will get very heavy, and you might have structural problems. They make flooring tiles up to a foot wide and four feet long, or 2 feet square, big things like that.

Wire mesh would solve the problem, and you can get it in different grid sizes, there is, of course, the traditional hardware cloth, 1/4" or 1/2" squares. But, at our Lowes, (or was it Home Depot?) we got 1/2" x 2" mesh, so it looks more like cage wiring than just a grid. All of these are usually galvanized, which is not good for critters, so you scrub it with vinegar first to remove any excess or loose zinc coating.

An advantage of wire grid is that it makes it much easier to put things, features, toys, etc, in the cage, because now you have something to hook them on to. Bird people will sometimes cover the entire back wall of an aviary cage with something like chicken wire, and then stuff it with straw, grasses, mosses, etc to both create a good look AND give the birds a place to grab fibers for building nests and foraging through. Toys, wooden ladders, nest boxes, perches, shelves...all kinds of things go up much easier because now there is the grid to hook onto instead of having to drill holes through the back.

I still think you also need a mess of branches for them to climb on and chew. If I sent a bunch up to Worcester with my son when he returns to college there, would that be too far for you to go pick them up?

[zenaida]

Thanks for the ideas and encouragement.

Winic, I did briefly think of glass, but I haven't found a way that would be practical yet. I can look at it again, but I recall just doing the front 4 panes was about 300$. To do the rest, it would be about double the surface area for the walls alone. I would have to see if I could find a less expensive way to get glass.

For the tile, the plan would have to be for getting big pieces, probably 12x12 because of the lower cost per foot and to reduce grout and overall work. I have considered that the structural weight might be an issue... I just don't know what else to do about it.

I've been thinking about what if I just slapped more wood up there? But then I know I would run into issues with the constant replacement like I did at the front...

I already have a roll of 1/2" hardware mesh in the house. I used it to guard the lights and make the travel cage. I'm not sure if it is enough for all the walls, but it would at least get me started. Even if it isn't enough, I know exactly where I can get more.

I want to get out and forage my own branches, but my brain being broken right now means that I'm not getting out like I used to... Keep in touch when your son is going down, if you can send me a PM like a week or two before he goes I can look at my schedule and see if that would be possible.

[zenaida]

I wonder if they do it more when we are away? I've been sitting here for at least a couple hours and I haven't seen one bit of chewing. I know it comes in waves, but it really felt like they stepped up their game when we went camping for 3 nights and over a friend's house for 1 night this week.

Edit: It's not much, but I tossed in two boxes moved a couple things. They seem more active and are doing all their normal destructive things, but totally aimed at the box. They particularly like a wine box because it is long and thin and has a very small opening at one end that is like a pop up hole. 

[winic1]

Wall glass could be thinner than front window glass, which should lower the cost. I have a whole bunch of old window panes from our 1965 wooden frame windows, I could see using them like tiles (they are thin, 1/8", untempered, untreated glass, the wind blew right through them, and the wood was rotting)but not having tried, I don't know how practical that might really be.

It very well could be that when you were away, and they missed your presence and normal activities, they chewed out of stress or boredom, or trying to make their escape since you weren't watching.

Any boxes, tubes, toys, anything to create a new, interesting, distraction can only help. Have you given them ping pong balls yet? Rocks? As long as pebbles are too big for anyone to possibly get in their mouth, they're good. Sometimes one will decide she needs to make a rock pile, and spend lots of time collecting and moving rocks. In many ways, they're just like toddlers and little kids--any new toy is a good toy, no matter how simple.

I know my son and husband are planning to go up to Worcester on the afternoon of the 21st, and stay over Saturday and probably into Sunday. After that, it would probably be late August when he returns to school for the fall.

[moletteuk]

I think glass or tiles will be heavy and could be a problem. If you did want to tile, you would want epoxy waterproof grout for any areas in contact with wee, and that stuff is a pain to work with.

If it helps Zen, it's not just you, our cage and pen are now a patchwork. We used sheets of thin aluminium to patch the parts of the cage that ours chewed. Ours just chewed certain areas, at one point I did worry that they were going to chase the chewing all around the cage as we protected different bits, but they didn't. We have used some dodgy old bits of aluminium sheet that we had lying around and we also bought a full sheet or 2 from a metal wholesaler (I think it was about £60 for 4x2'. We had a bit of a crisis when we put the permanent pen up because we used varnished mdf, which is different to what we have in the cage, and they went crazy for it, like the varnish tasted of strawberries or something to them. So that got metal lined toot sweet (as titchy would say) apart from the long back wall which just happened to be the right length to cover with a glass shower panel that we had just replaced.

Are they chewing the back wall, or is it mostly the fronts of the sides near the doors? Could you do metal sheet on the sides and mesh on the back? I would be tempted to try the mesh in the urgent places first and see what happens. I imagine a close mesh like 1/2 inch will be quite frustrating to them becuase it will be awkward to get their teeth through the gap at all, it might work really well.

[titchycatnipsandwich]

Zenaida, I've had to line my goos' favourite parts with mesh that has holes that are... 4mm, I think? anything bigger and they just chew around the mesh. I never realised plywood was so pretty if you went through the layers! But even though I swear some days they're determined to get out, mine seem to lose interest before then.

Could you mesh the outside? Then even if they did get through the walls, you know they aren't getting out. I used a staple gun and mesh and just went to town on the back wall where their chewing was concentrated, and because that wall is against the wall I don't have to look at it

[zenaida]

Thank you everyone! This is very helpful. Both to hear stories of how you have overcome such things and ideas. I'm a bundle of stress with everything besides this issue and the idea of them getting loose or hurt is putting me over the edge a little. All the reassurance is very helpful.

I did consider this: www.homedepot.com/p/Amerimax-Home-Products-20-in-x-50-ft-Aluminum-Drip-Edge-Flashing-68020/100043900?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-100064203-_-100043900-_-N
Basically a long roll of aluminum. It comes in a few sizes, for instance 20 or 10 inches wide and up to 50 feet long. I stopped thinking of that because I felt like it would be keeping them in a dutch oven or a fun house... Also what would I secure it with? I could do the staple gun, but that just sounds arduous.

Winic, I'll try the ping pong balls and rocks, those are new to me. There's a whole bunch of rocks the right size right outside my door too from when the school made a temporary access road during intense flooding this spring.

[moletteuk]

Oooh that is pretty thin, I don't think I could guarantee you that they couldn't chew through that!

[deguconvert]

Zenaida, I had the same difficulty when I had a large group of young females that were determined to get out of their cage. The cage was very large, but because they had escaped multiple times into our home as young pups (they were beyond brilliant at escaping) they had discovered the whole of our home as a playground (full upper and basement 1200 sq feet plus) and were determined to continue having the whole home as their own. I faced months of renovations, which they promptly proved faulty again and again, until finally they were large enough and I had completely succeeded in foiling their ingenuity. For some of my holes I had to sandwich mesh between the cage wall and another board of pine. I didn't use 2X4, but planks. I bought sturdy mesh, that was hard to work with because unrolling it was difficult, but they couldn't chew threw it. There were a couple places that they just insisted on having a go at . . . they would suddenly discover a 2X4 ledge screwed in place. It would become a perch as well as a chew, but they didn't usually chew it beyond use or recognition.

Sending you peace!

[zenaida]

I don't know for sure, I think that is basically what I'm patching with now only much wider and longer. My current patches I just do staple gun along the entire side so they can't get it up. They can't get through it, on the flat, but they do try to nibble at the edges.

When you said aluminum sheet, what were you thinking? That would explain the price discrepancy too.

[moletteuk]

The aluminium I used is 0.5mm thick, smooth or with a lightly embossed bobbly pattern on it. Degu teeth are stronger than aluminium so they can put good scrapes in it when it is used as edging, not so much on a flat surface, but I wouldn't like to say what the thickness limit is. I'm fairly confident that 0.5mm is fine - it's fine for our degus, it's thicker than it sounds.

[zenaida]

So the sheet I found would be about half that thickness.

Let me see if I can find a thickness dimension for the aluminum I'm currently putting up. The hardware store guy pointed me to it, it is some sort of flashing that has a couple bends in it. Right now I'm just pounding it flat to make the patches. (I'll take some pictures so you know what I'm talking about.)

I would think that if this roll is at least as thick as what I'm putting on right now, it would be ok because they don't even try to chew it except for the edges.

Thanks for replying again. Everything comes in fits and spurts with me.

[zenaida]

So it is just a hair thinner than what I have right now. What I'm using is .0104 of an inch (approx .23 mm) and this is .0092 of an inch (approx .26 mm). It is a difference of .03 mm.

Here's what the stuff looks like before I pound it flat and then flattened:


Here it is on the wall:


I'm thinking if I went through with this, I would cut the pieces and wrap them to the outside front of the cage so that there is minimal area that they can get their teeth on. Also it would protect the outside front from their teeth a little during playpen time. As much as possible I would do continuous sheets.

I also would secure it with roofing nails instead of the staple gun. It would take a little longer to install, but it would look nicer due to the precision factor and I think it would be easier to deal with. I might consider gluing much of the surface area to make sure it lays flat and then the nails along the edges to deter teeth.

Man do I love their furry little butts! And they don't even know the extent of it besides "she brings food"!

[winic1]

If you have to line it with the aluminum, you could also use sharpies to draw on it first to make it look less oven-like. You could draw a landscape, or just do designs or patterns or whatever. Once dry, the sharpie should be safe, wouldn't you think?

[zenaida]

I don't know if I'm a good enough artist for that, but I love the idea!

[winic1]

Doesn't have to be a great work of art, do it more simply like cartoon style--if going for a natural look, draw rocks, clumps of grass, hills in the background.
Or, how does the original Honeybun Hideout look? If you had a picture of it, could you reproduce a simple version of it?

[zenaida]

I remembered it being boring because it is in a cave, but when I went to grab stills I found more detail than I remembered. Maybe there would be enough to do some art. 

Frida making protest signs: 


The sitting area they have with ships and the phone booth in the background


Another of the sitting area with two space ships and the go-go cage they locked the guys in. Also has their mascot muck leech in the shot. 



There's even an overhead shot: