°Hello°

[cinnamon]

Hi! I'm Cinnamon and I'm from germany. I came to this forum because I have a quick question and couldn't find an answer in the german forums. I'll do my best to write as good as possible. English is not my native language.

I have 4 Degus, all male. Two brown ones (3,5 years old), a white one (3,5 years old) and a grey/blue one (7 years old). I adopted the first 3 last year in October. Their old cage was way too small, they had no real food, no water. Nothing.
I bought them a new cage and everything.

5 months ago I adopted the grey one. I found him in an animal shelter after his partner died and the owners didn't want him anymore.

I bought a bigger cage and formed a new group (all four in one cage) which went fine. Not a single fight happened.

But I noticed a change with the start of December 2016. They started fighting more often, started sleeping separated and ate less. There's no blood in the cage, not even fur but the fights happen every 10 - 30 minutes. They box, they kick, they "climb" each other and chase each other up and down the cage. Sometimes they trip and fall down from their houses.

I noticed that they formed "teams". The white and grey don't fight that often (maybe once or twice a day) and the brown ones do the same. When I cleaned the cage two days I ago I had to separate them for an hour and it went silent. No fights happend. The brown team was in the top of the cage and the white/grey team in the bottom.

My mother suggested separating them forever and form two groups because they all seem so tired because of all the fighting. I'm not so sure about that because I read that November to April is breeding time.

Any suggestions?

Greetings
Cinnamon ~ ☆

[spottydegu]

I am not sure but sometimes when mine have scraps I might just seperate them for a little bit (Maximum a day because I only have 2!) and it can fix it.
The fact you have bought a bigger cage when you put the four together proberly means it is good sized however you might want to check the size:
deguworld.proboards.com/thread/9396/forums-cage-size-recommendations

[cinnamon]

The cage size is 100x60x200cm (Width, Depth and Height) with two full "levels" and 2 half levels (100x30cm). It's like floor, half level, full level, half level, full level, top of cage. They have both places for hiding/sleeping and open levels just for running (plus running wheel). They have enough space I'd say (but bigger is always possible) and it got so bad just recently. I know little fights and all that but not like this. Not so loud and long, the whole day is just them fighting/boxing.

[deguconvert]

Hello Cinnamon, and welcome to the forum! I'm sorry that they have fallen out with each other. That must be so stressful for you.

While your cage meets the minimum requirements for cumulative surface area, it is possible that they are still feeling a desire for more space. You have more than enough height in your cage to increase your half shelves to complete levels. Is that something you would be able to do? If so, do that could calm the fighting by allowing that bit more space where they can be apart of they want. Do you have enough of a bond with them all that you can hold them in your hands if you need to? It would be good if you could look to see if there are bite marks on them, but you need to be able to push their fur the wrong direction/forward to be able to adequately see.

[cinnamon]

Thanks deguconvert! Yea, I was thinking about increasing the space too. I think I could manage to build something inside the cage so they have more space. I actually planned on building something myself (like a wooden cage/closet kind of thing) because the cage I have is annoying to handle. It makes it very hard to install new platforms etc.

Sadly, the three younger ones are so traumatised that I can hardly touch them. I'm still trying to bond as much as possible. I don't even want to know what the previous owner did to them to traumatise them so much...

The oldest member of the group is very shy. He doesn't fight very often and is very gentle if I offer him food. He does take it and I managed to stroke him a bit yesterday. He seems fine. I don't know that much about his life before the animal shelter. But he's not ready to go on my hand which is fine for me but, as you said, it makes checking for bite marks and wounds harder. :/

I'm a bit scared that it'll make them fight more when I rearrange the cage a bit (like bigger platforms) as they seem easily stressed at the moment. Especially the white one. I have to work extra careful around him because he freaks out easily.

The summer season however went fine. They rarely fought. And yea, it stresses me out but I'm more concerned about their health in the first place...

[moletteuk]

If they have difficult backgrounds and are easily stressed and not easy to handle, then I would consider the option of dividing them into two groups if you can manage it spacewise.

It is normal to see increased aggression and squabbling at this time of year, but less usual to see it in older degus, so it probably is a product of them being a new group and the heirarchy not being settled.

It's difficult to predict what is the best course of action beyond increasing their space. If they are happy to stay in the two groups then everbody can be happy and has another degu to live with and the fighting may hopefully stop. But it's impossible to promise it would be that simple and that they would not start fighting more within the pairs.

I think it's a valid concern that altering the cage may make them fight more temporarily, I think you need to be ready for that and perhaps build in the option to easily separate them at that point in time.

You may have to experiment and try different things and try to figure out if it helps or makes things worse. It is possible to do 'time-out' short separations or separations for a few days, or isolating them for short periods. Try not to do anything that risks the pairings because then you have a tougher situation if you end up with singles.

[cinnamon]

I could separate them at any time. It takes one spare platform I have to install to make two separate cages. Plus I have an empty cage (60x60x150cm/Width x Depth x Height) if something really bad happens.

I've seen the conditions the three youngsters lived in when I arrived to adopt them (the price was one bag of Haribo) so it doesn't surprise me that they fight over food or space. As I said before, it was horrific!

Adopting the fourth member into the group wasn't that much of a problem. I basically sat in front of the cage for hours making sure everything was fine. And it was.

Even now the oldest isn't that much involved in the fights. It's mostly one of the brown ones attacking the white or the white attacking back. The grey one only fights back when he gets attacked.

What I've seen before was my white Degu fighting with a brown one. As soon as the white one got out of it he ran up to the grey on, snuggled up next to him and napped for 10 minutes till the brown one attacked him again.

The fights are loud if that matters? Thank god they've never been a ball of fur in the fights. It's just chasing and boxing. But 24/7 and I don't think that's normal.

I know that making two groups could make it worse or better... my mother got the idea of separating them after she saw how silent it was when I cleaned the cage and accidently separated them. As soon as the youngsters met again the fighting started over and over again. Like they just waited for the moment to fight again. It was really stressful and concerning.

[deguconvert]

Cinnamon can you tell me how you did the introductions between all of these? That might be helpful.

[cinnamon]

You mean how I introduced the grey one to the youngsters group? (I'm a bit confused sorry :/ .. )

[deguconvert]

Were the two agouti (brown) degus and the white degu altogether when you got them? My understanding was that the two agouti were a pair, and the blue and the white were both singles that you brought together and then introduced all four to form a group. So, how did you get all four together?

[cinnamon]

No I got both agouti + the white one as a group and adopted the grey as a single.

I attached a smaller cage to my bigger cage for a week so that the three Degus (2x Agouti, 1x White) could smell and see the grey Degu. After a week of no aggressive behaviour I decreased the size of the big cage to 1/3 of its original size and introduced all four in the smaller part of the cage. The three Degus were very interested in the new one and sniffed him a bit and showed him who's the Alpha by mounting him and chasing him for maybe 5 minutes in total. After the 5 minutes they all started grooming each other and nibbling the neck/under the chin area. They chirped quietly and started to form a big pile of sleeping fur. They just napped, played and chirped like normal Degus do. I waited a few days and opened the next platform, giving them 2/3 of the cage. Still no fights. After two weeks they had the full cage and never really fought (unless there's food).

[deguconvert]

OK. Sounds like you had a pretty good introduction over all, and the five months of peace, and now recently lots of fighting. Do you know if it is both the agouti boys attacking the grey, or just one in particular? Do you know if the one with white is occasionally aggressive because of the behavior of the agouti boys, or does he seem to have aggression of his own?

How is the grey boy doing? Do you see him showing any signs of depression? Staying on his own? Hiding?

[cinnamon]

One of the Agouti is more aggressive, yes. He's always at the top of the cage and fighting for the platform. Like he's trying to say that it's all his. He's the one who's fighting for everything. If he thinks the food from one of his brothers is better, he will attack them.

The second Agouti is not so aggressive. He rather stays away from any fights.

The white one is aggressive too. He's always mounting the first Agouti one and the Agouti is mounting back. The White one starts fights very often too.

The grey one is, just like the second agouti, not so aggressive. An hour ago I saw the three younger Degus cuddling and the grey one sat alone somewhere on the bottom of the cage. But it took 5 minutes and white x agouti started fighting again.

I don't think they look depressed. Even when the grey or second agouti sits alone you can see them being relaxed and eyes half closed. Looks like they're enjoying a single nap sometimes.

I've never seen them hiding, no.

[deguconvert]

Sounds like something has upset the top position enough that it is in contention. Sometimes this can happen following a cage cleaning. If enough of their scent markings are missing, it seems to wipe their memory of who is dominant, and the hierarchical positions of everyone else. Had you done a cleaning before this began?

Sounds like both the grey and the other agouti are content with their standing, and are just glad to stay out of the conflict which is primarily with the white and the aggressive agouti. When the two fighters get overly agitated or frustrated, their aggression spills over onto the quiet two. Are you seeing any signs of blood around the cage?

[cinnamon]

The fighting began without reasons. I didn't clean the cage before.

There's not blood in the cage. Not even fur.

Today was a bit better but I'll have an eye on them...

[deguconvert]

Sometimes it just doesn't make sense to us at all!! We have begun to think that there can be a personality conflict, or some kind of offense that we just can't see, but which impacts them a lot. I hope they settle it quickly and without blood she!

[cinnamon]

Alright, it's me again. A few days passed and I had an eye on my Degus as much as possible.

Well.. the aggressive brown Degu seems to be alone (at the top of the cage) most of the time. The white Degu and the aggressive brown Degu fight if they see each other.

My Degus are not tame as I said before but I tried to check their bodies. The aggressive brown Degu has two small bald spots on his back and there seem to be two wounds. They're not bloody and already crusty but they're there.
The other Degus don't have wounds. Maybe a scratch on the nose but that's it.
What confuses me the most is that they still cuddle especially in the afternoon. All four of them.

My question is if someone has ever separated their Degus forever because I'm scared I'll do more harm than good. When I separate them into two groups I would leave it like that.

I'm very concerned and I want the best for my pets.

[deguconvert]

Oh yes, there are definitely members on here that have separated their degus into smaller groups for good. Sometimes they work really well, and sometimes after a bit, one of the groups of two fall out and also need to be separated. In cases like that where you have two singles and a group of two, or a group of three and a single, there arise the questions of, do you keep them single after that? Do you look into having the males neutered and finding female companions for them, do you have the space to accommodate the cages and their sizes needed for that, and are you able to financially afford these things.

While I know it is very disturbing to see such fighting, there are so far no wounds that are concerning, and it sounds like it remains fairly benign. Are you able to leave them a while longer to see if they will work it out?

[cinnamon]

I'd never keep a Degu alone. I'd either get a new companion for the single Degu or try to find a new home. My mother said she'd keep a group if everything fails (she loves Degus too).

I can wait a little longer, yes. I'm currently looking for bigger cages or a way to increase the platforms in size just in case. I don't plan on rehoming or rebuilding at the moment because it'd stress them too much.

[Deleted]

It's not so bad keeping a Degu alone if they're in the "company" of others. Just a thought!