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Post by gerbie on Feb 6, 2016 4:01:10 GMT
Hi everyone! I have two, 3.5 year old degus (brothers). I've had them since they were about 5-6 weeks old and they've been a lot of fun! Question time! In the last year, I've noticed that their urine is VERY strong and very smelly. Like...it will gag you. I will clean out their cage, wash their hammocks, ledges and everything and within 10 minutes of being back in there, they stink. They pee all over everything. One of them pees in one corner and I tried the whole litter training thing but it didn't quite work out. Their pee is very dark. They do drink a lot of water. Between the two of them, I am filling up their water bottle every single day. They've been to the vet about 5 months ago for a check up and all seemed well.
They've been on the same food (Higgins Sunburst Chinchilla mix) since they were very young so there wasn't a change in food in the last year. When I first brought them home, I had tried about 4-5 different foods, including a homemade mix I found online and they wouldn't touch it. This is the only food they'll eat. They have access to hay 24/7 and they don't care for any degu approved fruits/veggies or anything like that. They're extremely picky. Is it something I'm feeding them that's making their pee so stinky? Or should they see the vet again? They used to be quite chunky but have slimmed down.
I have several animals and pride myself in not being able to smell them when you enter my home but when the wind hits their cage just right...good lord. Thanks for any advice!
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Post by moletteuk on Feb 6, 2016 20:38:01 GMT
Degu urine isn't normally smelly until the bacteria start to multiply after a couple of days. I think it could be related to diet, there could be glucose from the diet making it into the urine that is affecting it, or it could be that they have a kidney issue or something like that. A urine dip stick test at the vets could be useful as it can indicate glucose, ketones, kidney issues, infection etc. The Higgins Chinchilla food does not look like a healthy choice for them, it seems to contain molasses and fruit, it also contains carbohydrate rich grains, so it could easily be putting more glucose into their bodies than they can cope with. How big is the water bottle that they empty every day? Two degus should drink up to around 50ml a day. Extra drinking can be a strong sign of diabetes. Diabetes also usually shows with weight loss and hyperactivity followed by lethargy. I know degus can be very stubborn about what they eat, but I really think you need to try again to move away from the Higgins product. Have you tried them with forage like herbs, flowers, grasses, tree leaves, hedgerow and meadow plants? Forage is really important as it is what their bodies are designed to digest, most degus take to forage much better than vegetables. What country are you in? Here is our feeding guide, which contains lots of other links to things like nutrition charts and commercial food chart which you might also find very useful deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16425/degu-feeding-guide
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Post by gerbie on Feb 6, 2016 20:46:46 GMT
Thanks for your reply. I am in the US. I have tried them on different foods in the past, been very patient and they will leave the bowls completely filled all day. I want to try to make my own degu diet again because then I'll know what's being put into it. I've checked that feeding guide out and it's been helpful but I can't get them to budge. I do feed them flowers, leaves, herbs, etc but they don't really care for it.
Will definitely try to wean them off of the Higgins food again as long as I can find something that I know will work for them. I definitely want to feed them the correct type of food they need but they are so picky, it's hard.
Their water bottle is a 16oz bottle (not sure what that is in ml, sorry) and they finish almost the whole thing in one day. It doesn't leak so I know it's them that's drinking nearly all of it. That is alarming to me.
I will ask for the urine dip stick test when I take them in next, which should be within the next couple of weeks. They are very active, constantly on their wheel, are not lethargic in any way and aside from some weight loss, they seem pretty healthy otherwise.
How would you suggest switching them to a different food when they will starve themselves before they give in and eat? Are there any decent brands of US commercial mix that I could try in the meantime while I research on how to make my own? I've found a lot of suitable diets for them but they're UK based and I can't get them over here.
Thanks!
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Post by moletteuk on Feb 6, 2016 21:03:59 GMT
16oz seems to be 473ml so I think there is definitely a problem. Ask the vet if they can do the dip stick test that tests for lots of different things. You could also buy some keto-diastix yourself, or get some from the vet, these test for two aspects of diabetes glucose and ketones, if diabetes is suspected you often need to do a few tests at different times of day to get the full picture. The safest US commercial foods are sunseed vita or the Versele Laga degu products (Nature, Pro, Crispy), the versele laga ones are healthier as they are grain free, but they are often judged to be less palatable by degus. Unfortunately I don't have the solution to winning a battle of wills with two degus! I think the vet visit and testing will help becuase then you will know how important the diet changes are and we will know what you are dealing with. I think a two pronged attack would be good of gradually reducing the Higgins and at the same time offering a lot of choice of new healthy things based around forage and seeds, they are bound to like something. Degus with glucose issues need regular food through the day and slow release energy, so regular small meals or grazing through the day are best. There is some food discussion in this USA food thread including a source for forage and seeds for the all natural diet you may have read about deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16569/links-herb-supplies-american-threads
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Post by Karma on Feb 7, 2016 0:12:04 GMT
I didn't read fully the other comments so I'm sorry if some of it overlays
The other food you could try is the Higgins vita garden .... It is a pellet diet with goodies like peas, rose hip, petals etc. Might taste similar enough to the sunburst for them to switch over, go very slow - I would mix a cup or two of votes garden food with a bag of the sunburst and then go half and half for the next bag etc etc. Degu nature also goes down well (I find they go through the food cry fast though).
And keep trying! My boys were the worse eaters until about 2 years and are now 4 and are finally starting to eat some thing I wanted them to years ago!!
Are you using pine shaving? Or care fresh? I find that pine shavings smell horrible! If you can spot clean your degu cage it will be better, fine the areas they tend to pee in similar areas and then mark everywhere else. If the cage is small or if you have levels that don't have a thick layer of substrate they will smell. You might just be senstive as well, I can smell ferrets on their owners clothes if it it's been hours since they handled me, it's just me more sensitive them. Ask a friend or two for a honest opinion about the smell when they walk into your house.
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Post by animalmadchloe on Feb 7, 2016 22:09:47 GMT
I stopped using sawdust and finacard I found it held onto smells, I only use newspaper now I layer it thickly over cage floor then shred up loads of papers and fill the levels and any overly wet paper just gets whipped out with clean underneath and I do a poop sweep too, I do a deep clean once every two weeks, where everything is removed and washed with hot soapy water. I don't really smell anything apart from the hay in my lounge and I always check with friends if my longe smells which they say it dosent. I do get paranoid about smells! I defo agree something isn't right if your getting bad smells after just a few hours or so. Urine infection maybe.... Vets is a must and soon could be serious!
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Post by animalmadchloe on Feb 7, 2016 22:11:45 GMT
As for the food, I'm sure they won't starve if u start making changes, theyll eat when their hungry I expect.
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Post by deguconvert on Feb 8, 2016 17:19:10 GMT
Do they have any wood surfaces in their cage, like kiln dried pine or anything like that? Wood is great, but if it is a surface they spend any time on, it can stink big time as it will absorb the urine over time.
As Animalmadchloe says, you should have your vet check them for potential urine infection, as that could be making the urine more stinky.
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Post by deguconvert on Feb 8, 2016 17:20:09 GMT
Also just want to say, I LOVE your photo of them! They are fluff monsters and totally adorable!!
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Post by gerbie on Feb 23, 2016 6:28:47 GMT
Thank you so much everybody! Sorry it's been awhile since I've visited the forum so I didn't update you all.
I took them to the vet a few days after initially making the post and it seems as if one of them, Koopa, had a urinary tract infection. That has since cleared up but they are still a little smelly. I am contributing it to the food they were being fed. I am very slowly switching them on to the Sunseed Vita degu food and they are picking at it a little but I'm confident that they may end up enjoying it after awhile!
They are in a large, metal cage with solid ramps/shelves/flooring and I've used a few different types of bedding for them. I don't use pine because I cannot stand the smell of it. Right now, I am using Kaytee Clean and Cozy for them (and for my other critters) and it seems to be going alright. I put a glass lasagna dish in the corner I noticed them peeing in the most and they've been peeing in there so it's a little easier to keep clean. However, they pee when they run on their wheel so it ends up flying everywhere...haha.
They go back to the vet this Thursday (25th) for another dipstick test. They have lost quite a bit of weight (I think I mentioned that in the first post) and they haven't put any back on since their last vet visit. Their teeth are fine and they ARE eating...have about 75% Sunburst and 25% Sunseed Vita right now since they're making this difficult for me. Slow and steady wins the race.
Will keep you updated after their next visit!
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Post by bouncy on Feb 23, 2016 9:52:37 GMT
Glad you found a reason for this! What are their current weights?
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Post by deguconvert on Feb 23, 2016 15:11:57 GMT
Do you have before, as well as after, weights for them?
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Post by moletteuk on Feb 23, 2016 16:31:05 GMT
Urine infections can be difficult to shift, so I think it's good that you are going back to the vet this week for a follow up test, especially if you are still noticing some smell.
Did you manage to source any forage? I think this would make the hard food transition easier if you can get them to eat a portion of their diet as forage, plus it's really good for them.
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Post by gerbie on Feb 23, 2016 18:33:15 GMT
They do get forage, too. They aren't particularly excited about it but it's available to them! Koopa originally weighed 284g and Bowser weighed right at 260ish. Bowser has always been the smaller of the two (and the bossy one!) Today, they weigh: Koopa 201g and Bowser 198g. So they've lost quite a bit. I'm going to get a better weight on them Thursday as well as I suspect the scale I have is on its way out. I've removed their hammocks and snuggle sacks for washing today and noticed that one of them had some red tinged urine on it...so not sure if that is old or new. Glad they're going back Thursday. These guys worry me so much. I read posts about other degus and I keep thinking...my guys must have forgotten how to be a degu. Maybe they thought they were born a squirrel?
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Post by bouncy on Feb 23, 2016 20:40:44 GMT
If a urinary tract infection is aggressive, or is left long enough, it can travel up the urinary tract to the kidneys, so it might be worth asking the vet about that.
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Post by deguconvert on Feb 24, 2016 15:41:20 GMT
Have you asked your Vet about diabetes? That is a significant weight loss, which could be related to the urinary infection, or it could also be brought on by diabetes (if it is present).
What behaviors do you see, or not see, that doesn't seem degu"ish"?
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Post by moletteuk on Feb 24, 2016 20:18:06 GMT
Those weight loss figures are so significant I think you need to monitor them closely until you turn it around and they put a decent amount back on. Keep on top of the urine infection until you are certain it is cleared. Monitor drinking and look for it to reduce to below 100ml a day. If drinking rates stay high after urine infection is cleared then think about diabetes - did the vet check the glucose and ketones when they did the dipstick test?
I would suggest experimenting as much as you can with food to find more healthy things they will accept, maybe dried veg, nuts, all kinds of seeds, flowers, fresh forage, fresh grass, there must be something!
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Post by animalmadchloe on Feb 24, 2016 21:42:19 GMT
Are they eating any red food like beetroot? This can also make urine red, but seeing as one has already had a urine infection I'd be more concerned that it's traveled to the kidneys
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Post by gerbie on Mar 1, 2016 2:35:44 GMT
Hey guys! Just wanted to let you know that Koopa still had a urinary tract infection so he's still on meds for that. We switched to a different medication and he already seems to be acting a bit better. He's also gained a few grams back. He's been eating some pumpkin seeds and he really seems to like those. They've also tried dandelion and they aren't 100% thrilled but they do nibble at it. The food transition is still coming along slowly because they are super stubborn but they are eating more of the degu food now than the Sunburst that they were eating. Question. I grow wheatgrass and another type (I forget the name) for my cats. Would I be able to give some to the degus? I don't want to pick fresh grass outside because at my apartment complex, they spray the grass with chemicals. I think they might really like the wheatgrass but I don't want to give it to them if it'll hurt them.
And yes she did check everything for diabetes and the the levels seemed to be fine. They are back to drinking about the same amount of water they used to. They would go through a whole 16oz bottle per day when Koopa was sick...so I think he was the one that was drinking most of it. But now they drink much less and I'm happy with that. Their urine is also not as stinky and after I clean the cage out, I can't smell anything for a few days. So, I think it was the infection that was making everything horribly smelly.
Bowser has put more weight on too but I haven't had the chance to weigh him as of late because he's not the friendliest guy and he gets very, very mad. But, I have pet him and when they are out for playtime, I have handled him and I can feel a lot less bone.
Thanks to everybody who has helped me with this! The degus go back in a week or so for another checkup and to make sure Koopa's infection is gone or close to being gone. If anything changes, I'll update! I'm going to try and get some photos of them soon so I'll post in the proper section. I think you'll enjoy them!
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Post by Karma on Mar 1, 2016 5:14:27 GMT
Yes any cat grass is safe for the degus. I actually use to go the other way and the millet and other seeds I was giving the goos I would grow and the cats would eat ... They looooooved the millet grass. Haven't tried then new seed mix they get (sea same, celery, etc etc) because the seeds are so expensive lol.
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