New owner in U.S.; a few questions

[beckythetechie]

Hello all. I've just stumbled into the wonderful world of degu after a pair were offered to my fiancee and me at a reptile show this weekend. (Yes, we are snake owners, but we work with a number of furry exotics too, and would NEVER feed live or inappropriate prey to a reptile. These wee fuzzies are strictly pets!)

For now, Mara Jade and Jaina are in a 20 gallon tank with mesh top until we can figure out safe caging. The first night they were home, they squeezed out of the 1" wire spacing in my Quality Cage Condo, and with 2 cats in the house, we've no other safe alternative until they're larger.

I got almost no information about the degus from the seller/breeder except that they're both female (I confirmed this with a youtube video from another forum), and that I "can" feed them Mazuri chinchilla pellets and the same timothy/orchard grass mix I feed my 3 chinchillas.

My primary concern is figuring out how old the little things are, and I do mean Little! They were weighed on Monday at 98 and 96 g, and body size without tail is about 2/3 the size of my hand (12 cm?). I'm estimating them around 8 weeks, but have no real idea. on average, what age is a pup at around 100 g body weight?

Besides wondering about their age, I'm concerned with diet in the long-term. We live in a very remote area, which means I'll have to mail-order anything better quality than Kaytee or Purina feeds, as I do with Mazuri for the chins. I've stuck with giving the 'Gus abundant hay and the small servings of chinchilla pellets since Sunday night, but I know they'll need more than that soon, especially since they're so young. They have to need more micro-nutrients at this age than an adult or rescue 'Gu might. I did offer a rose hip on Tuesday since those appear on several safe treat lists and add Vit. C. Any advice regarding feeding degu in the U.S. is appreciated. (I've used home-made mixes for a number of other small pets, so I'm happy to buy ingredients and make a bunch if that's what's best for them.)

Finally, I've seen many photos of caging and wheels, but they're all designed for adult degu. What will I need to modify or leave out for *babies*? Already, we've seen that 3 cm/1" bar spacing is an escape hazard, but the rule with chinchillas is that for the first 6 months of their lives, they should have no treats and not be given access to a wheel so that calorie intake is spent on growing, not running. Is this the case with degu, or should I build a little inclined wheel asap?

They have a 4" layer of aspen chips, shredded paper, and hay in the bottom of the tank with a few toilet roll tubes and small food boxes scattered around for hiding, nibbling, and hoarding. This is being refreshed every other day to keep ammonia and fumes down, but I'll likely stick with aspen as the primary bedding for them, as it is for the chinchillas.

So, after that lengthy post of questions you've likely read a dozen times before, I'm Becky and I'm glad to be here. I apologize that I haven't posted photos, but can later if it helps with figuring out their age.

[moletteuk]

Welcome Becky

So food first. I don't think the mazuri chinchilla food is any good because it seems to contain molasses, degus cannot process sugars so you need to avoid anything listing molasses, sucrose, dextrose etc. Unfortunately lots of bought foods seem to contain molasses in America, have a look at this thread for info on food that you might be able to find deguworld.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=food&action=display&thread=15490 with the Oxbow Organic Guinea food mentioned at the end looking good on paper.

Here are some charts with nutrition information listing lots of safe foods:
deguworld.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=food&action=display&thread=15602

In the wild degus eat mainly vegetation plus about 25% of the diet is oil seeds. Bought foods are mainly cereals, so that gives you an idea that it's important to make sure they eat plenty of extra vegation of all kinds and a variety of oil seeds is great for nutrients, and as you mention, I would imagine would be great for development of young degus.

Your youngsters do sound young, 8 weeks or so sounds about right. They do grow quickly and long term 19mm (3/4") bar spacing is usually OK. You can make them a wheel and introduce a wide range of food additions as soon as you like, just take it gradually with each new food you introduce.

You have several options for housing. You can build them a cage yourself, usually out of wood, or buy a metal cage, something like a Critter Nation. for two degus we recommend a minimum combined running area of 1850 sq inches. ...OK, I just looked up your Quality Condo, you are looking for something approaching double this size, but it does look like a sensible cage. You could easily combine it with a second cage to make a great home for them. For now I would be inclined to buy some finer mesh and attach it the Condo so it is baby proof. And then you can add a full area shelf at mid height to give them more usable space. This will buy you some time to decide what you would like to do longer term. You may or may not find that when they are adults the 1" spacing is fine (it would be fine for mine). You are right that the problem with the tank is ventilation, you might be able to combine it with the Condo as a digging pit.

I hope that gets you started

[deguconvert]

I can't think of anything to add to what Moletteuk has told you. So let me say, Welcome to the forum, and to the fun of loving degus! If you have further questions, which is likely over time, please ask away. We frankly encourage new owners to ask any and all questions, as nothing is considered stupid when it comes to knowing and trying to understand degus. LOL!

[beckythetechie]

Thank you both. The more I look around, the more I think the best housing option will be a custom cage. I'm a theatrical carpenter and properties designer by trade, so assuming I can gather materials, a nice deep tile-bottomed (12") but wide (3' by 2') cage shouldn't be difficult. It's also far easier to build a cage to be cat resistant than it is to retrofit one! The talking the degu do is making my younger cat far too curious for her own good.

Moletteuk's findings about Mazuri foods are concerning to me for another reason; chinchillas, like degu, don't possess adequate digestive enzymes to break down dietary sugars. And yet, one of the "best" foods on the American market-- used by zoos and breeders all over the country-- contains a sugar they can't properly digest. Hmmm.... no wonder so many owners I'm in contact with on Chin boards have switched to an all-hay or hay and herbs diet. I may have to change the boys over as well!

I've a supplier of herb supplement for the chinchillas who is also a homeopath/naturopath. I'll be contacting her about a custom mix for these girls, and in the mean time I've some sesame, celery, and fennel seeds in my spice rack that I can offer the pups in the interim.

I've read mixed suggestions on sweet potatoes; some sites say not at all, some say only if cooked, some say only if peeled and raw. The chart here includes it as safe, though high sugar, so to be fed sparingly. How should I prepare it if I feed it at all?

And finally, Chad (my Other Half) has a concern: what are we to do about the nails? They're pretty sharp, and he's looking a bit shredded these days!

[Kins]

Sept 27, 2012 19:43:14 GMT beckythetechie said:

And finally, Chad (my Other Half) has a concern: what are we to do about the nails? They're pretty sharp, and he's looking a bit shredded these days!

You seem to have it all under control now. Look forward to seeing how your cage building progresses! We all love a good cage build on here!

Welcome from me too

With regards to their nails, unfortunately there isn't really an awful lot you can do. Some people say you can put very fine sand paper on their wheels which can help wear down their nails, others say stones or terracotta in their cages can help keep them a little shorter.

I personally just try and wear a long sleeve top when playing with the boys, other than that it's just something I'm used to having, a few little red scratches here and there...

[moletteuk]

I just did a quick search for the Mazuri, you might like to check yourself that I was looking at the right mix. There is loads of info about natural feeding on the forum, apart from sugar there is a massive range of suitable foods they can eat. It's a case of working out what you can source local to you. Our US/ Canadian members usually report how much more difficult it is to source things, so if you have a head start with a naturopath, that is great. Do report back what you find!

I think sweet potato is ok raw, dried out or cooked, but as you say, it's not the best choice. Raw sweet potato contains a digestion inhibiting enzyme, but I'm assuming that degus can handle this in a way humans can't, we have several of reports of people feeding sweet potato with no problems.

Wow! you are going to be able to make the most amazing cage - I'm envisioning curtains at the sides and a big stage ;D If you can make it just above 3' wide it's better, we recommend 100cm (3'4") minimum.

[beckythetechie]

I've found the Sunseed Guinea Pig pellets locally, so we've got a kilo bag of that to feed with the timothy/orchard grass hay I've been using right along. I also found a fairly good canary seed mix at the same store reasonably priced. (Contains: rape seed, canary grass seed, finch millet, flax seed, sesame seed, red millet, white millet, puffed amaranth, anise seed, safflowers) and found a good deal on a 2 pound bag of organic quinoa to mix in with some of the bird mix, plus the fennel seed, some dried parsley, and other stuff from the spice rack. That chart you linked me to is a godsend!

I plan to offer a teaspoon of the seed mix tonight with the pellets and hay and see how we do, then get a red pepper and some spinach at the grocery store, and add each of those a couple of days apart to make sure we head off any tummy upset that might crop up. But, until I figure out what's going on with this chinchilla feed, I'm hesitant to feed them more of it than I have to.

The custom cage will be a long-term project, but with luck it'll be fabulous! It's a design I had in mind since just after I bought my second chinchilla cage. The chins started in the Quality Cage Condo, then moved up to the QC Mansion, but they're both rickety, not entirely cat-proof, and they've had some tough luck with the powder coating on the pre-made pans. They're a good temporary or hospital cage, but not what I'd consider sufficient for the long term with an active animal. Now the chins are in a Ferret Nation, so a Critter Nation for the degu isn't out of the question either. Like all things, it just takes research and planning. I'll be sure to post plans and photos when I get to do it, though. I'd probably also take custom orders in the U.S. if it turns out really well. Caging could make a fun side-business.

Your (collective) help has been invaluable! Can't thank you all enough.

[moletteuk]

That all sounds great, Becky, the seed mix sounds good Be careful with the spinach, it contains something called oxalic acid, which means it's another food that you should feed in moderation only. Another thing for you to think about is growing or collecting some hedgerow type plants, tree twigs and leaves, dandelions, plantains, etc etc here's a list of safe plants octodons.ch/index.php/Herbs

[beckythetechie]

Hello again. Long time, no talk. My girls are doing well and growing like mad! They're well over 200 g now, chirping and whistling away half the night (we're night owls by nature, so I assume they're telling us to shut off the light and go to bed!). They've also retained the adorable habit of interacting with us *inside* our clothes, which for Mara Jade means stretching out the cuffs of my shirts so that she can perch in the sleeve and safely keep watch on the rest of the world.

I'm here with another question, quelle surprise, regarding food. The new bag of seed mix Chad picked up today contains, among healthy grains and seeds like rape and flax, chili pepper granules. Now, I know my reaction to chili pepper in *any* form, so I'm hesitant to feed this stuff until I know if Degu can tolerate the oils from hot peppers. They like small bites of red sweet peppers (capsicum) well enough, but the spicy ones concern me.

Any help appreciated! Thanks in advance.

[moletteuk]

Great to hear from you, the riding in sleeves thing sounds brilliant!

Chili peppers aren't normally recommended, but I don't know anyone who has tried them, so it's not totally certain they are unsafe. Have you have tasted them to check they are definitely spicy, and aren't just sweet peppers? It seems weird to me to put chilies in any seed mix for animals. After that I think it's up to you whether you ditch them, pick out the peppers, or try the tiniest little bit with your goos.

Did you make a start on the degu mansion yet?

[ntg]

I remember hearing something about chillies not affecting birds heat-wise. I think it might have been that whatever causes the "hotness" is specific to either humans or mammals, which might explain it being in bird seed.

[ntg]

Ahah found it, it's fine for birds but the chemical affects mammals... I'd imagine the goos would avoid it like other mammals do:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1335366/Why-birds-find-chilli-peppers-so-cool.html

[beckythetechie]

I assumed as much. Hot pepper is used as "squirrel deterrant" in wild bird seed for the same reason, and Octodon and Sciurus aren't that different.

I've drafted the plans for the new cage, but we're stuck waiting until income tax is returned here in the States to purchase supplies. The ladies were moved into a much larger aquarium with a "rat topper" just at Thanksgiving (end of November), so they have plenty of room and air, though it's not as sturdy and cat-resistant as I'd like. It's also hideous and hard to clean, so over all, I can't wait to build this cage!

As it stands, the footprint is planned at 2' by 3', with a height of (likely) 3' to possibly 4'. The base is tiled on the interior to 12" up the sides (the height and width of one ceramic tile) with painted white board (plum and lavender with green ivy and leaves) 10" up the outside to keep it from being chewed, but still lend stability.

I've planned two full shelves with little escape stairs/ramps, possibly also tiled to make cleanup that much easier. But the brilliant part was Chad's idea to install eye screws in the bottom of the shelves around the edges to attach little bridges and ramps and toys in the center of the cage, rather than leaving everything attached to the top/sides. The footprint is a little smaller than what's usually suggested, but adding the hooks makes better use of the vertical space.

So far, those sides are causing the biggest headache. I can't find any powder coated mesh/grate locally, and the cost to have galvanized coated by a specialist is steep. ($60/sq ft!) I've spoken with a few people in building supply places, who hear "animal cage" and immediately show me pvc coated wire, then wonder why I'm laughing. The stuff's great for reptiles that climb, like green iguanas and snakes, but a degu will chisel the entire thing to shreds in a day, or at least these two will! I'm not keen on galvanized wire for both clean up and toxicity reasons, but I may have to take that route when the time comes.

I do promise process and build pictures when we get started on it. If it works well, I might scan and sell the plans for other folks with heavy-chewing rodent-type things. If it goes according to plan, there's no reason the cage in my head wouldn't work for chinchillas, rats (with small enough mesh), prairie dogs, skunks, ground/low canopy parrots and other smaller birds, or sugar gliders too.

[winic1]

Might not be a useful idea, but have you taken a look at some of those small-animal playpens as a source of cage sides?

I also keep finches, and bird people build cages using the galvanized hardware cloth, usually in the 1/2" x 1/2" size. You scrub it in vinegar first, then rinse well, removes the excess galvanization so you don't get that dusty metal feeling from it. Have also seen galvanized 1/2" x 1" stuff at Lowe's, we were considering it for our degus, but then went with a double high Critter Nation instead, and rigged up plexiglass side guards and extra shelves and all kinds of stuff within it. We have two cats and a dog, so appreciated the security it provides.

[banditcuster]

When making putting wire around my dog crate or making the tops to my bin cages I end up using galvanized since that is what I can get. Haven't had any issues with it yet.