Dry droppings and change of diet

[luna1]

I have had various eating issues with my lot over the past few months and they have now settled down slightly into a new eating routine.

They used to be on PAH Degu pellets before they went off all food completely but then I started trying different ones. Alongside the pellets they always used to get plenty of hay, dried herbs, flowers grasses and seeds and I have struggled since day 1 to get fresh veg into them but nevertheless, I still offer it twice a week.

They are now on JR Farm Degu premium food in the mornings, I leave the bowls in all day as they tend to just pick out the good bits to start with. They also get dried veg, many different herbs, flowers and seeds on a rotational basis in with their hay.

I have noticed that they are all producing less waste matter and the ones that are produced are very small and dry. They don't seem to be drinking as much either but I figured that this is probably because there is no added salt in their diet at all now whereas there was before with the extruded feed. They all used to drink around 15-20 ml of water a day but now they barely drink 10.

I am a little concerned as they are not eating the volume of food that I think they should be but they have different ideas on this and I have had to cooperate with them their weights are a little low but nothing too worrying and I do have 7 out of 11 who are recovering from illness or having their 3 monthly teeth problems again. This all has to be taken into account when judging their weights, which at the moment I am doing weekly.

Any ideas on how to make fresh veg more tempting? I wasn't sure if this belonged in the nutrition area or here as it is to do with bowel movements?

Any ideas please

[luna1]

Just to add some more info to above; I have come back from my weekly - yes, literally, weekly- trip from the Vet as Noz, my little man who has had endless problems after his ear surgery, had to have his teeth rasped because of not eating properly for weeks. My Vet X-Rayed him, he is very thorough, and has found a very tiny stone in his bladder. <sigh> it seems this little sweetie is never going to get a break. We think it is through lack of water as his drinking habits are somewhat lazy. But I know that stones can also be caused through too much Calcium in the diet.

One of my girls, one of the very few who has never suffered teeth problems, also needed her bottom molars rasping. I noticed she was grumpier than usual and had a sour, metallic smell around her mouth, which it turned out was a lacerated tongue due to spurs.

I am at a complete loss as to what is going on with my lot. I honestly do everything that I can for them, their diet is very varied with lots of natural stuff, their cages are home made and much larger than some I have seen, they all love to pysically assault me then fall asleep on me every day after their playtime out of the cage, of course they have the added bonus of having a great Vet who really does understand them and also happens to love them......sorry, rant over

Anyway, has anyone else had any experience of bladder stones? Apart from making sure I physically put enough water into him and keeping him on what is now a natural diet and watching his water works, I suppose I can only hope that he will be able to pass it without too much pain.

[deguconvert]

Poor little Nozz!! I can't imagine it, and have never heard mention before of bladder stones in a degu. My word. Bless your vet!! He is a gem!! Wish he did rounds, LOL! In Canada! I hope that Nozz will pass the stone easily, and that it won't cut him on the way out. Do let us know how things are going.

Just wondering . . . How are you going to know if he gets blocked and can't pass liquid?

[luna1]

Thank you for your good wishes DC

Yep, my lot have a habit of suffering ailments that aren't seen very often, if at all, in Degus! I really wish that more people who own Degus had access to my Vet, he is an absolute marvel and so human as well.

Noz is in a bad way today. The sedation yesterday has really knocked it out of him as he has had so much in the last few months. He is ruffled and not eating because his mouth is sore from the rasping. Munchkin on the other hand, who had the same procedure is full of the joys and back to her old self.

I will know when he is passing urine as he spends most of the day out, either on me or my Daughter who is on the Easter break before exams. We are syringing lots of water into him and have had to give him some critical care. He is so thin still but we are hopeful that he will pick up again as he is very determined.

[moletteuk]

Fingers crossed Nozzle will make good progress over the next few days.
Sorry I don't know about bladder stones, and haven't thought of anything very helpful about the small, dry poo. What do they look like when they are freshly laid, as it were? Could some of it be accounted for with the warmer weather last week, and possibly a more open texture to the poo from the different food, making them give up their moisture more readily? Maybe they are getting more fibre from the JRF food and this is allowing them to absorb more moisture in the bowel, which means they are drinking less and the poo is drier? I really don't know, I'm just thinking out loud.
Once again, I'm at the other end of the scale to you with drinking, mine drink around 30 to 50ml a day, but it does vary quite a lot, I'm still trying to work out whether some particular foods are causing them to drink more.
My only suggestion for getting them to eat fresh veg is a half joking one to rub nut crumbs/dust/oil on it! They'd still probably just lick it off, mine will eat very little fresh.

I've been thinking that it's not so straightforward to control weight by increasing or decreasing food. I think their activity levels can make a massive difference. My girls are continuing to put on weight, despite me reducing and reducing their food, I think they are staying in control by reducing their activity as I reduce the food. Catch 22. Sigh.

How did things go with the food battle of wills? How's Luna?

[luna1]

Thanks for that M, very thought provoking

When the poos are freshly laid they are very dark and dry. I am sure that they aren't coprophagiasizing as much due to the unappetising texture of it, which isn't good. Your theory makes sense but I still think that they aren't eating the volume of food that they should be. Even my Vet commented on the 'pathetic' size of the poo yesterday. Without doubt you are right about activity levels and food. You probably won't believe this but I had this last Summer with a lot of mine. They would reduce their activity when I reduced their food so they wouldn't lose weight. They became very lazy and whenever they were weighed they had actually put weight on despite me cutting their food back to half the amount! Lots of head scratching at the time but it gradually dawned on me that this was the case. I started making them forage for their food in and out of the cage and also extended playtimes, much to their digust at that time.

Their poos used to be lovely and large with a 'glossy' appearance and to be fair, 2 of my boys still have normal, not that large, looking poos and they are all on the same diet. It is baffling.

The food issue is still going on but they are eating a bit more than they were but selectively and I am now worrying about calcium to phospherous ratio as I seem to have lost complete control of what and when they eat. It has become a bit of a free for all and I am losing track. I leave their bowls in after feeding now as you kindly suggested to me but by the end of the day there is still quite a lot left so this is when, instead of feeding another bowl of JR P I then supplement their hay with flowers, herbs, seeds etc and they spend a good 20 minutes foraging. The following morning a bit more food is gone so I top that up and we start all over again!

Luna is a work in progress and will choose to eat on her terms. She is still dangerously thin but is so bright and hyperactive. She is like a child with ants in her pants and can never sit still, she annoys the hell out of her sisters who, it must be said, are much larger and lazier than her but they are also strangely protective of her. She is also very verbose and cannot be quite but as you can probably tell, I wouldn't swap her for anything, I absolutely adore her ;D but she does sort of prove the theory on activity levels and food because even when she is eating well ( a distant memory) she never puts that much weight on.

[moletteuk]

Let's hope the poo reverts to more normal by itself. The only other thing I thought of, since you mentioned coprophagy (lol I didn't know the verb had 'size' thrown in for good measure!), was to consider offering some of the healthy looking poo from the two boys to the others, it could help if there is a gut flora imbalance (presuming those two boys have healthy guts).

You tried Science Selective squares didn't you, they liked it for a while and then went off it? Mine get half a square of this each in their food bowls, and it's one of the first things they eat, so with mine, it's one of their favourites. It's also so hard it's pretty good for their teeth. I think I'm saying it might be worth trying it again if you are concerned about the selective eating.

Thanks for the ideas and spurring me on to think a bit more about my girls' weight gain. I'm a bit like you and like to see who has eaten what for their main meal, so i can keep track, so I'd be a bit uncomfortable scatter feeding everything. Flossie, the biggest, is a quick eater and most persistent at foraging, and most forceful at defending her foraging patch, so she would probably eat more. I already scatter seeds and herbage and veg though, so I'll make more effort to make them work for this food. I experimented a bit last night with scattering smaller amounts over wider areas to keep them busy hunting for longer, it went quite well I think I'm going to remove some of their nest more often and mess up their cage so they spend more time and energy fixing that too. They really like to have things 'just so', so I thinks there's quite a bit of scope for them to burn some calories off doing 'housework'

Have you tried Luna on some higher fat foods, nuts, home-made biscuits with sunflower oil, oil seeds? Have I already asked? Probably, sorry!

If you find some hawthorn, or other suitable trees, try offering some of the fresh new growth to your veg-phobics, mine will eat new growth hawthorn leaves and buds, should be fairly energy rich and have some moisture.

[luna1]

Thank you for more good ideas Moletteuk, you really do help me focus, especially at the moment when my mind is on, yet again, poor Nozzle.

After his teeth procedure on Wednesday he was understandably low. Thursday he was very ruffled, sleeping all day and had to be syringe fed and watered. He seemed in terrible pain so late Thursday night I callled my Vet. We took him in today and his symptoms are somewhat unclear. He is not comfortable, my Vet doesn't think that he is suffering with his bladder stone as it is very small and when comparing X-Rays to 2 weeks ago, it wasn't there then so is relatively recent. I managed to get a urine sample from him and the results show that he is not diabetic and doesn't have crystals in his urine but it did show a minute amount of blood. His eye on his paralysed side - he now has facial paralysis from his ear surgery - is half closed and had some white globules in the corner. My Vet decided to put him back on Baytril and gave him a Meloxicam and Vetergesic injection, also a pain killer but opioid based as it has helped slightly in the past. He has dropped 17 grams in 2 days

When we got him home he was wheezing and bloated and had deteriorated on the journey back. i couldn't get any critical care into him as he kept blowing it back and was whimpering and wheezing, clicking as he breathed. I called my Vet again and he suggested trying to clear his throat in case food had got stuck, with a cotton bud. NOT A NICE EXPERIENCE. In the end I rushed him back and we discovered that he is only breathing through one nostril.

I have reluctantly left him with my Vet tonight and he is in an oxygen tank to help him breathe. My Vet thinks that because he was sedated with the Vetergesic this has caused his system to slow down and the channel that drains away fluid between his eye/nasal passage on his paralysed side has stopped working so he is struggling to clear it, hence he can't breath and eat. He is also very bloated from gulping air.

So, yet again, I am back to hoping, praying and willing to sacrifice absolutely any thing in the hope that he comes through this. He is back to biting quite hard again and he really isn't a biter. My daughter and I are covered in deep bites from having to hold him for all the awful procedures. I feel so low right now as it seems that the odds sre stacked against him and no matter what we do, fate always steps in to cause more set backs

As I have said on here before, he really is so terribly precious to me and I still cannot contemplate life without him. I know that he is in the best hands but that doesn't really help. His Brother is now looking for him, just when we got them back together again after the last long winded, horrible procedure. I just can't seem to win.......

I will get back onto the other subject once I know what is happening with my baby.

[moletteuk]

I'm so sorry to hear how poorly Nozzle is again Let's hope your super duper vet and all your very special love and care can make him better again. Sending positive thoughts and wishes xxx

Could he be held/ nestled in a certain position to help clear the fluid and help him breathe on his good side?

[luna1]

He managed to survive the night but Alistair told me this morning that it was touch and go after I left him last night as he expected the oxygen to have helped him quicker.

He has been taking food today at the Vets but Alistair felt that he didn't want to let him come home, he normally lets me bring him home quicker than he would allow normally as I am now so experienced in caring for them. Not something I am particularly proud of, I would much rather have had a healthy bunch.

As of tonights telephone update, the general concensus is that he will never again breathe properly out of that nostril due to the now permanent facial paralysis. But he is coping. Alistair is going to take Noz home with him tonight and touch wood, all being well,I can go and pick him up tomorrow. I really feel that we are living on borrowed time now as he has been through so much. i have lost count of the times that Alistair has saved his life now.

M, your idea on trying the science selective again was good. 6 out of 10 ate them immediately, of course Luna stored it but I am wondering if her teeth are causing problems again! They had that for breakast and JR Farm premium for dinner, of course Luna is still prevaricating but then.........what's new? she is fed high fat seeds, oats and home made cookies that have crushed peanut and sunflower oil in them alongside anything that I can think of that is high calorie. Of course, I also worry about the load put on her liver because of a high fat diet and also Nozzle. With him I think it's a case of quality of life now rather than longevity I can't believe I just said that...........

Sometimes I wish I had never got Degus.

[moletteuk]

Perhaps switching foods regularly could help keep your goos interested in eating?

I'm really sorry to hear you sounding so crushed You work so hard for all your special needs goos, I'm not surprised it gets to you from time to time. I'd be a gibbering wreck if I had to cope with what you normally take in your stride. Just hang in there, give your daughter and your other goos some cuddles and keep hoping. I'm thinking of you and Nozzle and hoping with you. *hugs*

[luna1]

Thanks so much for your kind words Moletteuk, it helps to offload sometimes as I feel like a pressure valve just waiting to blow. You can probably imagine, I haven't been the easiest person to live with recently

Nozzle came home today and he does at least have an appetite. He is still sneezing and it sounds very wet but he isn't wheezing, touch wood. Alistair discussed with me the future and he feels that if we have another huge drama as we have just gone through, then it may be kinder to stop his struggle. He is on Baytril (again) although my Vet doesn't think that he has a respiritory infection, I'm not so sure. Looking back at pictures of him not long after the ear surgery, his right nostril was closed then but we were't aware of it as he wasn't showing any breathing symptoms. It seems strange that the sedative effects of the Vetergesic kicked off a breathing struggle but he was sneezing from the beginning of the week. In other words, I think and I am hoping that he has an upper respiritory infection as this would account for the breathing problems.

Having just got Boris back with him before Fridays drama I was concerned about how putting them back together would go. There has been lots of mounting, grooming and annoyance. I made sure that I scented Noz with my and my daughters smell and then rubbed him with their blankey from their snug before doing shoulder intro's. Noz is just as guilty of chasing and mounting Boris so that is a good sign although he gets tired very qui ckly, I think, due to oxygen deprivation, due to the one nostril working. He has eaten dried veg and hay and has also taken several syringes of critical care. So for the moment it's all good.

When I picked him up I don't think that I have ever seen a Degu so pleased to see me, although Alistair did answer the door with a tissue wrapped around his finger, he said that he had joined our (bite) club, whilst trying to inject him with Baytril. ;D

So, for now, my baby has been given yet another reprieve.........but for how long? All I can say is, as long as he has the fight to go on and take some pleasure out of life, then I will fight twice as hard, right alongside him!

Luna is chewing everything including metal clips in her cage so seeing as Madam hasn't been seen for teeth since the 22 Feb she is probably due a tooth inspection as she doesn't 'do' food it is hard to tell but my Vet is away at a conference next week - feeling a bit panicky about that - so she will have to wait. There is no drooling yet so it may just be 'Luna madness'. We'll see!

[moletteuk]

I'm so pleased he's home and sounding a bit better already and so feisty! I swear he must have rubber running through his veins the way he bounces back, and long may it continue. Try not to worry about the future for now, I'm convinced you have such a good relationship with him that he will be able to let you know his wishes.

I hope it gave you a great lift to see him so excited to see you

[deguconvert]

I, too, am thrilled that all has gone better than feared at the start of the weekend. I'm so very glad he is home, feisty enough to bite the vet , and ready to take on Boris. I'll be thinking of you and Nozz, and hoping that Luna will find ways (Luna . . . HAY . . . it's good stuff for teeth, better than cage bars) to keep her teeth in check until your amazing Vet is back home to give her some attention.