New Babies - worried for their future health

[xquisitedegu]

I had two wonderful boys for 3 years, Saffron and Phoenix. I had lots of help and support from other members when the boys both developed problems with their teeth.

Unfortunately, Phoenix suffered fatal fits on returning from the vets one day, leaving Saffy on his own.

Saffron has to have his lower incisors cut regularly and has occasional problems with spurs on his back teeth. He also has the condition where the roots grow down into the lower jaw.

We worked out (from knowing a little of his history), that his father had been his brother and this explains the problems both he and his brother have gone through. Saffron now has Metacam daily for the pain - but he is a wonderful natured, friendly, happy little fellow. It was never intended to breed from him.

When we lost Phoenix, I had wanted to concentrate on seeing how well Saffron did with the medication, and then decide if we were getting one or two males to go with him.

However, my son's fiancée (a veterinary nurse), wanted to help and located a 'male' rescue degu, Rascal. 'He' was said to be 1 year old, the runt of the litter who was always picked on by his cagemates. Resulting in the loss of the end of the tail and one claw on the right front paw. Rascal had not only been kept as a boy for the first year of life, but was also double checked by a vet before my son's fiancée agreed to take him.

We kept them separate for the first couple of weeks, just a bit of supervised introduction/play and their cages were kept touching.

Rascal, although very nervous, soon started climbing onto my hand. I had trained my boys from babies (Saffron even sits in my hand and opens his mouth for his medicine each day), and it looked promising that Rascal was just as friendly. Before putting them in a split cage, I double checked Rascal's sex (I have previous experience and I double checked from photos on Degutopia, plus my daughter checked and she was an animal care student, with experience of degu sexing), Rascal really did look like another boy.

I separated Saffron's large cage (cage on top/4ft tank below) into two, horizontally, and they would warble at each other. However, one day I did not put the divide back securely and we found them cuddled up together quite happily, so decided to leave them together.

The next day, Saffron loudly announced that they were now more than just friends, with the customary chirping. Still we thought Rascal was a boy and that Saffron had just been showing the newcomer who the boss was. Till she began frantically nesting and growing bigger every day.

She had her pups over the weekend - 6 or 7 I think, I don't want to stress her so I just keep an eye on her and the babies through the glass. Saffron was moved out just before she had the last baby, so I am quite confident that nothing happened - plus Saffron can't help bragging anyway, so we would know.

Apart from my concerns about the babies inheriting their father's mouth problems, I know that if anything scares them in the first few weeks of life, it can cause a kind of ADHD and today the fire alarms went off, full blast, just outside the room that mum and babies are in.

Two alarms sounded for about 20-30 seconds (at the same time) and as soon as they had quietened, I went into the room. Rascal was chirping in the top of the cage, and babies were huddled right at the back of the nest. I managed to coax mum back to them, and in just a couple of minutes they were suckling and warbling again.

Has permanent damage definitely been done by the alarms?

Also, will it be OK to put Saffron back with his family tonight and is there a way to do it, or do I just pop him back in the cage? He was taken out at about 1am Sunday and it is now 7pm Tuesday.

I have been keeping him in a separate room because Rascal was stressing too much trying to see him and not concentrating on her babies.

Thank you to anyone who can help with my questions.

Jackie

[listracian]

The alarm won't have done damage, at least I would be surprised if it has. Just keep an eye on them to make sure mum is looking after the babies.

As for inherited inbred problems I can advise on that! I had two litters, that were siblings and cousins all at once, I never owned the fathers but I had seen them and they seemed healthy enough however it's clear the pups werent. When you can and its more able to do so maybe in a week or two check all the pups eyes! I had two pups born with cataracts and though the vet had never seen it or heard about pups being born with it they clearly were. Also are you planning on rehoming them? I would advise keeping them if you have the space just due to that fact that out of the 9 pups two have died and two have serious cataracts. Or if you rehome them to pass on that they may have issues. I would get the pups down to a vet in a few weeks to get them checked over as the earlier you catch any possible issues you can hopefully get it sorted. Also the vet could check their hearing as well if you are worried about it? Don't worry too much about the babies I expect they will mostly be fine but just keep an eye out for anything. Make sure there are things for the babies to start nibbling as well one they start growing as that may help prevent them getting their dads teeth issues.

The waiting time to put dad back in is varying but generally 48hours is enough time so I think you can put him back in, you might find it helps calm mum down as well. Just keep an eye on them

I hope it all works out well and all the pups are fine, its so much fun watching pups grow!

[xquisitedegu]

I am so sorry to hear of your problems with your pups - it is so sad when they already have these issues at birth.

We did put dad back in last night - and it was love at first sight between him and his babies - they both seem to be really attentive parents. Got a decent look at the babies last night, one seems a little smaller than the rest, but they move so quickly it is just like a huddled mass within seconds, so tricky to see.

We do intend keeping the babies as I already have experience with tooth/mouth problems and have a bit of an idea what to look out for.

I have read that you cannot even keep males and females in the same room, as it causes the males to fight when the females are in season. Unfortunately, a separate room isn't possible. I was thinking of getting all the males neutered so that I can extend the current cage and have them live together.

Thank you for your helpful comments and I hope there are no more problems for your pups.

[luna1]

Hi,

I sympathise with you re the teeth problems as I have an awful lot of experience with this unfortunately. Molar root elongation (where the roots grow into the jaw or up into the nasal cavity) can be dealt with as long as it is the bottom one's only. I have a wondeeful, very experienced exotics Vet who has a particular interest in Degu's and he has operated on 2 of mine so far for lower molar root elongation. He clips the problematic roots back to create a 'bonsai' effect. It does mean sawing through the bone though and is quite a tricky operation so isn't routinely done by most Vets but it does ensure that those roots no longer cause a problem.

I thought that Male Degu's had to be separated from Females after birth for 5 days but I could be wrong. I will check with Chloe from Degutopia as she is very reliable on Degu health issues and has helped me no end over the years.

ADHD iin pups is generally only caused when the pups are separated from Mum too early or separated from her for a long period of time.

I keep unneutered and neutered Male in the same room as my girls as I have been trying to breed this year and it hasn't caused any real problems, this season or the last 4. Just try to keep the cages apart and not right next door to each other. Neutered Males in my experience are still capable of fighting and causing domonance issues, they are just a bit slower in losing their rag ;D believe me, my neutered Male is still causing problems and I have often jokingly asked my Vet if he really did the operation, that was 2 1/2 years ago!

Good luck with your pups, I really admire you for keeping them all as a lot of people would re-home them without thinking of the ramifications. Your only consolation is that the parents are probably not related. I have waited 3 years with my chosen 2 that I intend to breed from and touch wood, they haven't shown teeth or other health problems yet but that doesn't guarantee that they won't in the future even though their parents were also healthy. If My little lady ever allows breeding to take place then I will also be keeping any pups that are born as I just don't trust anyone else to look after them like I do.

[xquisitedegu]

I understand your feelings that no-one could take care of your goo babies like you could. I feel that way about my babies - I already have an idea what to look out for and expect, someone else might overlook symptoms that I am already familiar with.

I have spoken to my vet today regarding neutering Saffron before the 16 day deadline when she could come into season again. I know the females become fertile at 6 weeks-ish and boys at 12 weeks-ish - so at least then they would all be together until they were almost 3 months old - but I wonder how risky neutering is, I love my little Saffy so much. We really bonded when he was on his own (before we got Rascal), and that bond has remained.

My vet is going to contact a couple of others that he knows (one is quite a degu expert and used to be our degu vet, before he left our practice), hopefully between them they can help me decide the next best step. I also enquired about the surgery for his teeth, but my vet did not feel confident with this and also pointed out how well Saffy is doing with the Metacam, which is true, it does help a lot. We (myself and our vet) realise that there could be ramifications for his future health because of the constant painkillers, but we are looking at keeping him as healthy as we can right now.

I wish there were more degu experts down here, but I live right at the bottom of Cornwall, and degus do not tend to travel well (in my own experience), so I must rely on my vet to learn about each bit of degu physiology as a problem arises. I would add that he is an excellent vet and very open and honest with me about his knowledge and he has said he is happy to learn more about degus.

Thank you for taking the time to tell me about your experience of these problems, it all helps - not only knowing that other owners have been through similar problems, but also to know what has worked for you in the past. It all helps to build up a little more degu knowledge :-)

[luna1]

Hi again,

As you know, all procedures carry risks. Neutering Males is more routine than doing Females, although I have had both done. My boys, I have had 3 done over the years, came through without any complications but my Vet is very experienced. He uses a different kind of anaesthesia than he uses on other small animals as it allows them to come round quicker and they don't seem to suffer the groggy after effects that can affect them for up to 24 hours afterwards. My female was spayed due to cystic ovaries so we had no other choice with her but she recovered very well.

My Vet also teaches at Glasgow and Edinburgh Vet uni's and has used my gang as examples when teaching students, he documents everything and some of the procedures that we have had done, including recent ear canal removal surgery, has never been done on Degu's before, that we know of anyway. It's great that you have a good relationship with your Vet, as I know only too well, it is so important. Mine has become more like a friend to me now as we seem to be there nearly every week. I am so lucky that I was referred onto him by another Vet several years ago.

I can fully understand why you want to continue with Metacam. If Saffy is doing well on it then you must do what you think is right. I fully inderstand your bond with him as I have a very special bond with my Noris AKA Nozzle, he has been neutered and was the one who recently came through major surgery to his ear. He did stop breathing at one stage on the second procedure, but I wasn't told about this at the time because my Vet knew it would panic me, but if it wasn't for him, Nozzle wouldn't be here.

Amazing how we get so attached to these adorable, contradictive little creatures isn't it?

[listracian]

Okay I am generally really unpopular with this theory but... I have had males and females living in the room right next to each other ever since I had the litters and never had a problem. The only time I have had issues with males is when I brought Arthur and Merlin in as they aren't related to any of the others and so they are having issues. The boys that were born and grew up with the girls I have had no issues with what so ever. I put it down to the fact that they know each other, for some reason it makes a difference, it could be due to the fact that in the wild they live in family groups. I have several theories around it and their natural wild behaviour as I know so many people do have that problem. Personally though I think you are fine keeping them all together in the same room but separate cages

[deguconvert]

I agree with you, Listracian. I think you should be fine having them in the same room, Xquisitedegu. In fact, we have separated our males and females, and will be building a larger cage for them to rest on top of the largest cage, and so far, there is no difficulty at all. Well . . . except when one of the pups manages to climb out of the cage, up the bars to the top, and then sit next to the boys on the other side of their bars and torment them. They don't like that very much.

[xquisitedegu]

Firstly, thanks to everyone for the advice, it is very much appreciated.

I have managed to convince Pets at Home (I know!!!) to give me a free cage, as this is where our son's fiancée adopted Rascal. I have Saffron booked for neutering on Tuesday, not something I really want to do.

If I don't get him neutered, when do I have to remove him from the cage, as I could not cope with another pregnancy. Also, am I right in thinking that the girls and boys have to be separated at six weeks?

I am so torn - I know she needs him to help with the babies (she totally settled once he was returned a few days after the birth), but obviously I want to ensure no more babies. Can all this be done without having to neuter Saffron?

Sorry for all the additional questions, I just want to make sure I do the best for the goos that I have and don't bring any more into the world.

Thanks again to you all :-)

[deguconvert]

Female degus have a 21 day cycle, and the only way I can think that you might prevent future pregnancies is by taking Saffron out of the cage every day 19, 20, 21, 1, 2, 3. This I think would get stressful for you and for the degus before very long. I think that your alternative is to permenantly separate him from her once the pups are old enough to separate and have all males and all females. In the meantime, you will have to part him from her for a few days while she has her cycle.

[xquisitedegu]

Thank you deguconvert, I will remove Saffy for those days and have just picked up a huge chinchilla cage (courtesy of Pets at Home for making the mix up in the first place), and we are making plans to create a complete degu corner with cupboard space and room for two huge cages with tanks so that boys and girls can be separated. I have also called the vet and cancelled Saffy's neutering, and I feel very relieved. He has enough going under anaesthetic just to keep his teeth in check, he can do without this one.

I cannot thank you and everyone else enough for this help and advice - you are all brilliant :-)

[deguconvert]

It's a true pleasure to help! I'm glad that this is something you can do!!!

[fuzzymum1]

Mar 21, 2012 8:08:04 GMT xquisitedegu said:

I have read that you cannot even keep males and females in the same room, as it causes the males to fight when the females are in season. Unfortunately, a separate room isn't possible. I was thinking of getting all the males neutered so that I can extend the current cage and have them live together.

I have two cages in the same room (about 6-8' between them) one cage has two boys (from y unexpected litters last year) and one houses 5 girls and a neutered boy. They've been like since last summer without a problem.

[xquisitedegu]

Just a little update: At 8 days old, one of the more adventurous babies ventured upstairs to the cage (after doing a balancing act along the hammock ties). First time he scared him/herself and shot back down to the tank with a bump - second time the baby was quite content for me to pick it up and pop it back.

A proper ramp is now installed and hubby is just making the last couple of perspex panels to attach to the outside of the cage so that little bodies cannot sneak through the bars.

I cannot believe how fully ready to go they are within a few days - probably because they are usually earmarked for 'dinner' in their natural habitat. They dart around the tank and bobble and play, climbing over everything they can - truly amazing. I'd had so many worries, I forgotten that they were going to be an absolute pleasure to have.

I still have concerns that some of them will have inherited Saffron's problems, and that I have no idea of Rascal's background herself or possible problems she might have - but I have decided there is nothing I can do about that now - I'm just going to love having a room full of 9 gorgeous goos and cross each bridge as we encounter it.

Thanks again to everyone - it is nice to know you are there when things get scary :-) x

[luna1]

For now, as you have said, just enjoy your wonderful babies life is full of ' what if's?' and this can often spoil the experience. Very often we worry about things that may never even happen. Take lot's of pictures as they grow so very quickly

[xquisitedegu]

Sorry - I have another question regarding my pups. Not sure if I should start a new question, so please let me know if that is the case.

The babies are 2 weeks old today, but I hardly ever see Mum with them. When she does go near them they all huddle towards her and she runs away. Saffron (dad) spends a lot of time with them.

I am concerned as to how much she should be feeding them now - they quite happily chomp away, but I have not seen any of them at the water bottles. I have 3 bottles at different heights in the cage part. The babies all make their way up there now.

(I tried hanging a bottle in the lower tank part, but Saffron and Rascal kept pulling it down, even when fully secured they would 'dig' at it and nudge it all the time)

I don't know if mum should still be feeding them regularly or if I should put a small bowl of water in - not that it would last two minutes as one of the parents would be sure to have it over.

Sorry if I am overly-fussing, I just want to make sure that I don't overlook something that I should be doing.

Thanks again for the help :-)

[listracian]

Mum shouldn't really need to feed them now, just keep an eye on their weight if you are worried! As for the water if you are worried about the water if you can find a low rimmed bowl and somewhere it won't easily get knocked over then that could be an option. You just don't want a high rimmed bowl in case the pups get in and can't get out for some reason

[xquisitedegu]

I put a water bowl in - mum thought sniffing it would be a good idea, but it just ended up in a sniff sneeze cycle. I have been keeping an eye on them all and it seems that Rascal is still feeding the babies, but I have also seen one or two showing interest in the droplet of water hanging from the drinking tube of one of the bottles.

They seem to be very quick to learn and I have noticed that once I see one pup doing something, it is only a matter of 12-24 hours before they are all taking that next step, so hopefully the only reason they aren't showing that much interest in water is because mum is still supplying their fluids :-)

You mentioned weighing them - I haven't even had them out of the cage yet and checked their sexes - maybe I should get on with doing that today. I have held one or two in the cage and they seem to take my hands as part of their surroundings, so I'm hoping they won't get too upset by being properly handled.

Thanks again for the advice, it is so helpful :-)