Diabetes diet help needed?

[luna1]

Hi Everyone,

I have a Degu who has just come through major surgery and as a result of the meds that he has been on for a long period of time, I have a suspicion that he has developed Diabetes.

It is far too long a story to go into here but suffice to say that he is booked in with my Vet tomorrow for another procedure and I have managed to obtain a urine sample. Hopefully we will get an answer then but I am almost sure of it! We at the Vet yesterday but couldn't get a sample. He has been straining to urinate since Friday and is now on Baytril for a possible UTI - which is synonymous with Diabetes or kidney infection.

His urine smells 'sweet' of coconuts, at the moment he is on Critical care (not ideal I know, but necessary for now) and plenty of syringed water. I have had to remove the Avi pro pro-biotic from his water, which he desperately needs due to the fact it is sweet. Any other pro-biotics on the market that do not contain sugar.

Has anyone got any practical experience of living with a Diabetic Degu? I also have the dilemma of trying to feed him up as he has lost lots of weight but IF he is Diabetic, giving him foods that are zero sugar.

Any food ideas for the future for my very special little man?

Thanks in advance for any help

[moletteuk]

First thing is diagnosis, which is fairly simple to do when you can get a urine sample. It helps to do several tests at different times of day. It also can help once diagnosis is made to monitor how well he is doing by repeating the tests.

The main things are to feed low sugar, which you already know, low fat and high fibre. He needs a slow but steady stream of high fibre carbs through the day to optimise what he can process. It is thought that buckwheat, fenugreek seeds and jerusalem artichoke can help.

Is this the little guy from the immune system thread?

You already have all the foods I would recommend. If it is diabetes don't be tempted to try to feed him up, you need to think about stabilising him and sussing out any trigger foods that make him worse first. Again, if it's diabetes I would be tempted to simplify his diet a bit until he is stable, focus on hay and roughage (and maybe non sugary dried veg) with a steady stream of small quantities of nuggets/squares. You may need to work out yourself any foods which make him worse, you can tell this from increased water intake and stronger results on the dip stick tests.

I find it a bit surprising how little diabetes seems to crop up, and how little info there is out there about coping with it. All my experience comes from diabetic hamsters, but it all works on the same principles.

[luna1]

Thank you so much for the information, that is extrememly useful. Yes, he is the one from the immune system thread

I entirely agree with you, there is not as much information on Diabetes in Degu's as I had expected or hoped for. I don't know much if anything, about Diabetes, only the principles, hence I am struggling with it all. I have had a lot to take in recently as several of mine have been ill with different things and at the moment I am suffering from information overload!

The frustrating thing is, before his operation he was a huge hay eater and very active, since the op, he will barely touch hay or anything else for that matter as he is still suffering from problems with his ear/balance. The reason he is going back in to the Vet tomorrow for another ear exploratory as my Vet suspects granulation that if possible, needs cleaning out.

Looking at simplifying the diet is exactly what I need advice on thank you. The funny thing is, although I am syringing water into him as he isn't drinking by himself, he hates every minute of it and doesn't seem to want water at all.

So just a few questions - reassurances, please. He can manage pure shredded wheat, he has always had a little corner of this for breakfast, is that OK? He won't eat any Degu food at all but I feed a small combination of Science Selective Degu squares, although this isn't as high in fibre as I would like. P@H nuggets and the odd bowl of Beapher Degu Xtravital but with the locust beans removed. Not all together but on alternate days as they tend to get bored with one kind. Lots of natural leafs, clover & plantain. I should remove the popped corn from the JR farm, herbs of the field? He loves marigold and chamomile flowers, are these OK? Are the safe seeds, IE, Quinoa etc OK?

I will get some fenugreek seeds and Jerusalem artichoke tomorrow, the main thing at the moment though is to get him off Critical care, which I hope will happen soon after we have tried to stabilise his ear. The problem that I have though is working out what is making him feel so bad as to not want to eat again. The suspected Diabetes and, or, his ear. Pain doesn't seem to be the issue, rather disorientation at times. His appetite is good though as he will eat 6 10 ml syringes of critical care at a time and then some home made hedgerow herbs, sugar free, cookies afterwards.

Sorry for all of the questions, I am still trying to get it right and even if the initial test is negative for Diabetes I think it sensible to feed him as if he is until other tests are consistent.

Thank you for your help

[Ady]

Yes seeds are safe. You can feed them daily, just be careful with seeds that are high in fat.
Seeds- amaranth, buckwheat, canary, dari, quinoa, millet,
Oilseeds- linseed, sesame, sunflower, pumpkin, milk thistle, hemp

Here's list of safe plants, herbs deguworld.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=food&action=display&thread=8772

[Ady]

Feb 26, 2012 17:54:42 GMT luna1 said:

I should remove the popped corn from the JR farm, herbs of the field?

Corn is high in sugar, also peas, beetroot, carrot, parsnip (there is beetroot,carrot and pea flakes in Xtravital). Qustion is how much is too much for diabetic degu? Hopefully someone will give u better advice.

Safe veggies with low sugar - broccoli, celery, cucumber, radish.

[luna1]

Thank you Ady,

The Xtravital was one that I introduced recently as it came out very well in trials and was given the green light for sugar, protein and fibre. This was before I suspected Diabetes though!

I think that it will be very hard to eliminate sugar entirely from the diet but I will be extremely vigilant. Unfortunately all of the veggies that are high in sugar he likes and all of the one's that aren't, he doesn't.

Today he has eaten nothing apart from some buckwheat seeds and marigold flower, apart from that he has only been sucking up lots of critical care. I was keen to get as much good food as possible into him as he is having his 7th dose of anaethesic in 6 weeks and he needs to be as strong as possible. Tommorow is going to knock him back by about 3 weeks and I am absolutely dreading it I am lucky that I work from home as he needs constant care and I have a feeling that I won't be able to just leave him at the Vet, I will wait for him as I am determined that he is coming home rather than being kept in. My Vet has turned into my friend so I am lucky that he is so well loved there as well as here!!

Does anyone know of a good pro-biotic for his gut now that I have had to leave out avi-pro pro-biotic because of sugar levels?

Thank you

[moletteuk]

I probably won't have many fact or degu experience based anwers for you because the information just isn't out there, but I'm happy to bounce ideas around and help you work things out.

I think shredded wheat is OK in small, regular quantities as it's whole grain with nothing added.
I agree with Ady, and I would pick out all carrot, corn, beetroot, parsnip (and locust bean) for now.
I wouldn't feed many oil seeds for now, but I would feed some cereal seeds.
If he gets the all clear for diabetes I would offer more oil seeds, my goos piled on weight when I added them into their diet.
I think chamomile and marigold are fine, I wouldn't give too much coneflower, echinacia is pretty potent for humans anyway. The jrfarm chinchilla flower garden flower mix goes down well with my goos.

Can I ask what makes you suspect diabetes? Drinking a lot is a major symptom for diabetes, it applied to every single hamster I knew of with diabetes and is an indicator as to severity, so if he's not got an instinct to drink a lot then I'd be hopeful he doesn't have diabetes. They drink a lot to dilute the toxins and flush away the acids that are produced when the body can't process the sugars/carbs.

What's his name?

I take it the teeth rasping didn't help with the eating?

[luna1]

Hi Molleteuk,

His name is Noris but we call him 'Nozzle' - he has many 'pet names'

I suspect diabetes because of the sweet smelling urine over the last week or so, in saying that not every day. He was on high doses of Colvason steroid injection for 7 days in total to reduce the swelling in his inner ear ( he had his ear canal removed) and the steroid is common for inducing diabetes where it is used in high doses. He has been straining to urinate since friday and there looks like blood in it as it is strawberry colour (nothing he has eaten) this is probably a UTI which can be synonymous with Diabetes but could also still be a kidney infection because of the high amount of meds that he has been on. You are right about the water intake and this is the only thing that puts a doubt in my mind, we will hopefully find out tomorrow.

The teeth rasping was done on Wednesday and that night he was eating hay again. Thursday, he was attempting to eat a bit of Degu food and other bits and pieces that were in his hay but I stupidly gave him a sand bath in the afternoon as he hadn't had one for several weeks and it put him right back with his balance again. My Vet thinks that the act of rolling has upset his equalibrium. His teeth were pretty overgrown due to not eating and as he was X-Rayed we had a good look at what was going on before rasping

As of Friday we were 3 steps back again as he is circling again and very wobbly.

Thanks for your interest

[deguconvert]

I have a question about his ear . . . the surgery that was done, did the vet remove the entire inner ear?

[luna1]

His ear canal was removed leaving the ear drum. He is in again today as his balance and head tilt has deteriorated and my Vet suspects granulosis of the inner ear - lumpy grains of pink matter that are left over from the very deep rooted infection, although there is no 'live' infection as it has been killed off with anti-biotics. Very difficult to get to as the area is so small and the endoscope is rigid so it is difficult to go round corners. But the granulosis needs removing so that he can regain his equalibrium.

Waiting by the phone now as I just want him back safe, sound and hopefully feeling better once he gets over yet another procedure. I wish I could take his place rather than put him through it again!

[moletteuk]

Hope it went well today for Nozzle (I'm a sucker for a 'pet name')

So there's really all kind of things going on with him, especially with the different meds. If you trust your vet, I think you have to let them guide you.

Perhaps one of the meds could have made his urine smell sweet?

Does anyone know about giving live yoghurt as a probiotic to degus? It's recommended in other small animals, preferably given more than 2 hours away from any antibiotics. It's not exactly the right bacteria, but it's better than bad bacteria recolonising the gut. There's probiotic in the Critical Care too.

Perhaps you could give him a sand shower lol! Sort of sprinkle it on and rub it in, it could be fun?

[deguconvert]

We had a CockerSpaniel that had chronic ear trouble that finally resulted in having his complete inner ear removed, eardrum, inner ear, everything, and it was horribly painful for him, but strangely it bothered him less to have the pain of the surgery than the pain of the ear infection. He was a new dog after that! I do hope that your Vet will have had great success with his efforts today, and that Nozzle will already be showing improvement.

As to the probiotics . . . I don't know what to think or say. The bacteria that grow in our gut are considered beneficial, are they also beneficial to degus? Can there be opposite reactions to the same bacteria? If not, I was thinking that to get some capsules of probiotic powder, such as we can buy in health stores, break them open and put it into his food might be very helpful . . . although I think you would have to be very careful not to give him too much. Such a tiny gut compared to the human gut.

[luna1]

Thank you both for your advice and kind wishes,

Unfortunately the future is not looking very good. My vet called me yesterday afternoon and said that Noz needed to be kept in overnight again. After opening the ear, he said that it had healed wonderfully well, there wasn't even any scar tissue. This sounds good but isn't and I am heartbroken. The fact that he couldn't find anything to explain the sudden downturn with the balance issues is so, so disappointing. If there was something obvious then there would have been hope for him but whatever is causing his downturn isn't visible to us.

He said that he was under anaesethic for much longer than he would have liked as he was trying to find a reason or problem. He had to bring him round urgently and then put him in an oxygen tank for a while. He was up and moving about last night and took his syringe feed and as of this morning he is back to what he was before he went in yesterday.

I could not begin to explain what this little man means to me. We have been through so much in our time together. He was very ill as a baby and we nearly lost him then but we found my Vet who saved him. I nursed him then and that is when our bond started. He has been in all kinds of scrapes over the years, very often because of his brother and he has always managed to be the victim one way or another. But he has dealt with it all in his laid, back, stoical way. we called him Noris after the 'slow Noris' sloth with the big eyes because the personality fitted so perfectly. He sleeps on me every nigh before his bedtime and has always demanded that I feed him from his bowl, I could never get away with leaving a bowl of food in his cage, oh no, as he would just kick it over and walk away in disgust.

My Vet and I aren't optimistic that he is going to recover any more than he has so far. I have been feeding him and nursing him for 4 weeks and although he has shown some signs of eating a bit of hay and a few treats I just wonder how much longer I can go on sustaining his life for him when he needs to be able to be a Degu again. There is a very fine line between giving him the best chance to live a decent life or prolonging the agony. As I am sure that a lot of you will agree, my heart and head are in total conflict at the moment. I know what I should do but when I see him later, it may be a different story, especially when he nestles into my neck as he always does when being picked up from the Vet.

I am due to go to the Vet later today as I have another 5 that need attention for various things - boy, do they choose their moments!!- I will have a chat with him and take it from there. It would have almost been easier, had nature intervened he is fighting and trying so desperately to live and my heart is literally aching. I have had many different animals in my life but this one is and will always be, one in a million.

Thanks for all the help so far

[deguconvert]

Oh Luna you break my heart. He sounds like a true little gem, and I hate that he is struggling so hard . . . and still losing ground. I ache for you and Nozzle!! I'll be thinking of you and he as the day progresses. Please let us know how things go?

[moletteuk]

All I can think to say is that I'm thinking of you. As long as you are aware of what your head is saying but still have any hope in your heart, I would listen to your heart just for now. You and he sound like a pair in a million.

[luna1]

I thought that I would update you.

I picked Nozzle up last night. He was surprisingly lively and very pleased to see me. He was asleep on my neck before we left the Vet ;D

The operation didn't prove or solve anything but I did manage to get the full story. Because he was under for a long time, my Vet was desperately looking for any kind of problem, the ear bled a lot as the blood vessels were still very delicate. He also stopped breathing and in the words of my Vet 'it was a heck of a job to revive him and we thought that we were going to lose him'. He had problems warming up because of blood loss and breathing afterwards hence he was placed in an oxygen tank for a while. My Vet said that he didn't want to tell me on the phone as at that point he knew that he had stabilised him and didn't want me any more upset than I already was. My Vet is fully aware of just how special he is to me and I am so lucky to have him as my Vet. His Degu knowledge and experience is second to none.

Nozzle cleared 9, 10ml syringes of Critical Care when he came home and then slept for 12 hours solidly, bless him. He took his shredded wheat this morning and picked at some hay. He has also been up and about 'shouting' at the ladies next door. His brother is living downstairs from him at the moment as he has been so ill, but there is a little gap in the divide where they both sit and warble at each other so he is happily doing that now. The best news is that he is NOT diabetic. We think that it was a surge in blood sugar due to all of the sugary meds that he has been on and this has now stabilised.

Bearing all of the above in mind, I have decided to go with my instinct. He really is fighting for life as he knows it and if he is happy to continue, then I am only too happy to assist him and do everything that I can do. He has the best Vet that we could ask for and he has made himself available to me nearly 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It will be a long hard climb back up the hill of recovery but I owe it to him, after everything that he has been through to continue. He doesn't seem to be in any pain, just frustration but hopefully we can overcome that.

So I guess, I should leave this thread now as the Diabetes isn't the issue for me. Hopefully, with all of the helpful suggestions on here, it will benefit other's who may come across it when searching for information.

And to think that all of this started with a mild ear infection! I have been very unlucky with health problems and my Degu's and feel that I have learnt 20 yrs worth of knowledge in just 5 years, mainly due to asking, asking and then asking again from everybody and anybody who was willing to answer my questions.

Thank you all so much for taking the time to read and suggest ideas, I am truly grateful,

XX

[deguconvert]

This is wonderful news indeed!! He has survived his surgery, though it was bumpy and difficult, and he is not diabetic. I am so relieved for you and for Nozzle!! I hope and pray for further healing and improvements in his health and over all well being.

[moletteuk]

I'm so pleased And how amazing that he seems so perky and keen on food & the ladies so soon after the difficulties of the op!

Do please keep us updated how he gets on, it's fine to continue in this thread or start another as you wish.

I'd love to hear about your other degus with health problems (and without!), it sounds like you've got some valuable experience to share

[deguconvert]

Hear, hear!! Erm . . . me too! ;D

[luna1]

Thank you both

I keep a Degu health book which seems to need updating every week at the moment

From December last year, up to now I have been to the Vets, on average twice a week, the health problems seem to have accelerated but I suppose in all fairness, most of mine are rescue's so I know each time I take one on, what I am letting myself in for!

I will just briefly outline each Degu who has had (and hasn't) had problems.

Noris - need I say anymore? ;D Although he did have Giardia as a baby that nearly killed him. He was also neutered because of conflict with his Brother, Boris. I got him done as he was just slightly more servile than Boris - We call Boris 'Boss' which says it all really. It certainly made everything calmer and let Boris take full control, although before Nozzles recent Op, he still behaved like his gonads had grown back at times.



Boris - no problems, not even fighting damage, he is remarkably slippery when it comes to getting off scot free.

Luna - where do I begin: She broke her leg very badly when she was 4 months old as a result of trying to escape the wrath of her bigger, bullying sister, Toxic Tia. She nearly had to have it amputated but my Vet inserted a pin and this proved successful although she now has arthritis in her knee and hip joint which probably wasn't helped by the fact that she broke it again last year. She nearly died at Christmas as she had gut problems and at one stage we thought that there was a growth in the gut from the X-Ray images, but it turned out to be an intestinal blockage full of food. She is very small, very lively and very fussy!! She has nearly used up all of her 9 lives!

Munchkin - unusual in that she (touch wood) hasn't had any issues in 3 years. The reluctant leader out of Luna and Guggles.

Guggles: She is also issue free but hopefully will be a Mummy this year if she ever decides to co-operate with Boris They really do love and groom each other when they come out together for playtime but she always backs off, when in oestrus, at the last minute. Patience is a virtue......

Diezel is my 'big blue rat' he is rather large and very robust. He has had penile sheath problems whereby his penis was too large for his sheath so the sheath had to be surgically enlarged but then it became too large so had to be stitched to shrink it again. He had his last procedure on it yesterday, an internal stitch and tissue glue. We are hoping that he will leave the stitches in this time instead of playing 'Dr Diezel.

Turbo (Bo) also blue - 2 broken legs, first time we don't know how he did it but the second time was Xmas Eve last year and he managed to bend the tibula -no, I don't know either!! - but he got it caught in his hammock. He also has teeth issues and has started with lower molar toot issues so this will be monitered and dealt with when they get too long.

Tia - another one who has had lots of problems. Separated from her sisters when they were 5 months old due to severe aggression. She has had her ovaries removed due to them being cystic, this I think contributed to her overt dominance and Aggression as a result of producing too much testostorone. A degloved tail that has recently been chewed and had to be operated on. Chronic molar issues resulting in her having the molar roots clipped back to create a 'bonsai' effect through her jaw. She has confirmed Elondontoma now. She is rasped every 4/6 weeks She has recently got over a yeast infection in her mouth, that was pretty nasty as it was constantly bleeding. Her motto in life is 'angry' as her ears are always back and she looks like she is going to kill Harry (cage mate). She was having her mouth examined by endoscope a few weeks ago and decided to stop breathing, her gums and tongue turned blue and we had to get oxygen into her very quickly! We won't examine her again like that, I know when she needs her teeth seeing to now by her behaviour so we go straight for gas.

Harry - no issues to date but he is around 10 months old and came to me with virtually no tail and a few personality issues. I suspect that he was separated from his litter/Mother too early as he is almost ADHD. Him and Tia go well together but life is never dull in their cage.

Boo. He lived in a dark shed and was fed on horse food (molasses) for the first year of his life but is amazingly resilient, if a little grumpy.

Reza - another one who lived in the shed, he has teeth issues and is currently suffering a gum infection so was on Bayrtil, this didn't work (not unusual in my experience) so is now on Septrin.

We lost Reza's Brother Dill, last year to chronic sinus and respiratory issues - he was Tia's husband, very gentle and far more compatible with her. He had many health issues, too many to say here but I think he enjoyed his last year of life with us, even though he was only 2. We let him go to the bridge in the end as there was no more that could be done.

Sorry Moletteuk but you did ask.... ;D There have been many other health problems over the years but they are the main ones. Oh and we also have to Briard dogs, 3 Chins and recently, 2 Guinea Pigs. The Degu's are all mine though and I think that I am probably obsessed with them! Good job my Vet is as well