Our boys bloody fight

[tokyokyotoxx]

Sheldon and Howard are 9 months old and in the adolescence age.
Yesterday they were constantly wrestling and getting at each other. Howard is the dominant of the two. After we went to bed it was getting quite loud so I went out to see what was up. Howard was bleeding on his stomach/chest about 3/4 inch long, and favouring the front foot near it.
I separated the boys, and they are still separated.
Because the wound is on his stomach I havent been able to get a proper look at his wound. I dont want to ruin our trust by grabbing him and flipping him over.
Right now he just wants to be left alone.
How should we take care of this wound? Should we grab him and check it? How long should we leave them separated?
This is our first fight so were lost

[malteser60]

Flipping him onto his back won't make him lose your trust as that is a dominance hold for degus. Basically tells them you're the boss. All animals that are hurt will want to be lerft alone. In my opinion, do flip him over, take a good look, and bathe the area in a warm saline solution. This way you wash out any detritus that has gotten into the wound, especially if there is any fecal material (our goos just love to flick that poo around). Also the salt acts as a very basic steriliser as most bacteria in wounds can't live in salt water.

If it is bad, i.e. more than a superficial wound, then take the goo to the vet.

Hope he'll be ok! Finger crossed!

[smux]

I agree with malteser, and the dominance hold is described at www.degutopia.co.uk/dominancearticle.pdf and is the proper way to flip a degu over onto their back as it will ensure they eventually stop fidgeting if they haven't had it done before. If he is being exceptionally difficult but you have had him for a while and he knows you, there is NOTHING you can do in one go that will damage the trust he has for you, so feel free to grab him (gently, of course) any way you can that will not hurt him, if that means from above (the "predator" grab, as that's how predators would grab degus) and scaring him a little then so be it...just don't make a habit of it :-)
If you do have to do this grab, get your thumb under his front legs and lift him into your hand with your thumb and bring your fingers around to get a firm grip of him, or the other way around (fingers under first) but with the thumb method he will feel a little safer as he is able to get away quicker and thus you won't be as likely to get attacked if he feels like it (you know his manner, you know what he's like)...it is probably best to just get him to come to you and pick him up normally then flip him over once he's safely in your arms, doing so won't lessen his trust and likelihood of coming over to you to be picked up :-)

One thing I would add about malteser's post is that I tend to use cotton buds for dealing with scratches and small cuts, and if it's a big cut I would use folded toilet tissue or kitchen roll to wipe the area down. Remember, degus hate water, so make sure you shake the cotton bud to remove any drops before applying it to the cut. Also, remember that the stronger the saline the more it hurts on open wounds so look at the wound before deciding how much salt to add to warm water (just in case you didn't know, the saline solution mentioned is just salt and water) and be prepared for him to flinch from either the salt or the wetness of the water...soothe him as you do it by telling him its okay and being nice to him.

Another thing saline solution does to cuts is cause them to close up by the salt reducing the water content of the area and forcing the cut to shrink, this is where the pain comes from so if he's in pain from it then it's working but it is better for you to get the mix right so he isn't in too much pain.

I would also clean out his cage if it hasn't been done recently, this would help ensure against infections from the dirtiness of the cage's substrate and such, and disinfect the cage itself if you wish. This is probably over the top a little, but if you have the time and the equipment it'll ensure a more comfortable recuperation for the little guy :-)

[tokyokyotoxx]

Thanks guys for the response.
We will flip him over, and inspect the cut.
We have had them since May of last year, when they were about 8 weeks old. So, howard is very used to us and loves us dearly.
This afternoon he seems to be doing better, but he has been talking to Sheldon in the section of the cage below him, and a bit ago started scratching at the door to that section wanting to get down to Sheldon, after having a quick little visit with him a few minutes before, so I removed the barrier. I think he was missing Sheldon and starting to get lonely. Since, they have just been going back and forth with each other, they want to sleep with each other, but every time they go to, they dont know who is dominant now, since this fight was Sheldon trying to become the dominant one after all this time. Im positive they will sort it out.
Sheldon was inspecting the wound, and they are brothers, so Im sure he does know he hurt him.

Ill post back with how the wound is.

The cage was recently cleaned, but new shavings are going in tonight anyways, as all this fighting literally shoved alot of shavings out and onto our floor.

I have a very light saline solution from the hospital for surgical wounds, that I will use to clean out the area, as its not to strong.

[smux]

Just in case, does the solution come with a list of ingredients? No worries if not, just wondering if there's any other ingredients beyond water (usually boiled and allowed to cool to make sure it's sterile) and salt.

My Dante and Elsevier (RIP) had a similar problem...they came to me as a pair but the fighting got so bad at one point that they had to be split up, and it was obvious to me that it was due to the fact that neither of them could agree on who should be the dominant one. I have also had similar problems with Loki/Damien but you'll be glad to know that ended better and they share a cage again, and your two have every chance of it going the same way for them.

I don't know why they have to have dominance over each other, they should just learn to live together, but who am I to argue with a degu :-)

[tokyokyotoxx]

Haha.

We checked the ingredients list beforehand, and its just sterile water and salt.

It took a few minutes but once howard was put on his back, he stopped moving and we checked things out.

Its thankfully nowhere near as bad as I expected, compared to the blood I seen last night.

No cut is more than 1/4in big. He has a small cut on the leg near his armpit, another small cut in the same spot on the other leg. He has a bit of a bigger wider one on the one side of the chest, but again nowhere bigger than 1/4in, and a smaller one on the other side of his chest. So 4 small cuts, and I checked the foot he was favouring, but no damage done, I think its just the leg due to the cuts thats bothering him.
Each one is pink fleshing colour in the cut, skin coloured around the edge, and no swelling, they were each clean but each was q'tiped with the solution, he didnt squirm during, and was given treats when done.

Should we keep flipping and checking each day? Also, should we use the solution each day until they are healed?

They have been together for about an hour, are doing some wrestling, but if it gets a bit hard we stop it so that howard takes it easy. If Sheldon leaves to another level, howard goes with him, so Im sure they will work it out.

[smux]

Have a look at him tomorrow, if you don't see any fresh blood then there probably isn't any need to clean it again but you should feel free to repeat the cleaning as often as you want. My Loki got a few pretty bad gashes under his chin from a fight with Damien (Damien's damage was much worse, and was mentioned on the forum, but I didn't worry about Loki's so much after I'd cleaned him up) and he let me clean him up and I haven't looked at his cuts more than once since.

Whenever there's a fight brewing, get the dustbath out and let them have a good bath. If it's a single-degu dustbath it's not as good, but if you have a large bowl or something they can both get into and roll around in the dust then it'll be perfect and dustbaths are a classic way to calm down problems between degus :-)

Talking about that reminded me of a time I was going to put the dustbath in Theresa's cage and she rolled over right then and there as if she was in a dustbath...on a shelf in the cage...they really love their dustbaths :-)

[nickymills30]

one of my girls did the same on here shelf, it was quite funny to watch lol

I use a sweets tin, like quality streets, you can fit 3 goo's in quite nicely xx

[tokyokyotoxx]

Should we keep them separated until Howard is healed?

[smux]

If he is limping, yes, if he's fine apart from scratches then no...if he is no weaker than normal, he'll be safe to go back in if they aren't going to fight again

[tokyokyotoxx]

I let them back together after that, and Sheldon hurt him again, this time he bit him on his bottom eye lid and top of the head. For a couple days we had to use warm water to open his eye because it was sticking together when he slept. Hes healed up again though.

Each time we put them together it gets into quite a wrestling, and howard getting hurt ( hes the tiny of the two )

We have kept them separated, and give them time together each day.

They seem to have some raging hormones, Mark went to fix a section of the cage the other day, and Sheldon lifted his leg and peed on the screw driver.

Every time they have time together, Howard starts biting sheldon in the tail, which gets him irritated so he gets frustrated and starts getting rough.

[smux]

Peeing on an item is a way of saying he owns it, marking his territory, that's a normal thing and it tends to happen a lot with degus in puberty...it should die down once they get a bit older, but they may never grow out of it :-)

The thing with having to wipe out his eye every day, I've been there with Damien and it wasn't too long before it stopped and he's fine now apart from the loss of hair below his eye (a portion of fur was ripped out and although I hope it will grow back I don't think it will)

If they're separated, you could keep their cages close together so they can at least see each other. This is also a risky suggestion (use it if you dare) but you may find that they fight during the day but get on fine when it is bedtime so you might be able to let them share a house at bedtime...this may mean splitting them up again every morning and pairing them up again every evening...I was doing this with my two Damien and Loki every day for a week or so, mostly because I was out of the house and they were fighting too often that I didn't think they'd be safe if I left them together. They're fine together now, there's the odd scuffle but nothing too serious, and if it gets serious I intervene and let them know I won't allow it (although it rarely does).

As for H biting S's tail, don't let him get away with it...if you have to show him up to do it, let him know it isn't allowed...the worst thing you can do to him is hold him in the dominance hold in front of S so everyone knows H isn't the boss and there's nothing he can do to change that fact. There is also pinning, something suggested by someone else on the forum for if they misbehave in the cage or if they're fighting...with that, you basically hold them down in place with your hand but obviously you don't push down with too much pressure, just use enough that they can't use their legs to crawl away (I would also have fingers either side, so it's like an upside-down dominance hold). They don't like the dominance hold or being pinned, so eventually they will realise that when they do something specific they get this treatment and if they don't want it they have to stop what they do to get it. They will also NOT hate you for asserting your power over them, they are more likely to respect you...as long as you have a loving relationship with them otherwise, they'll be no different...they'll know that it's their behaviour that's causing your behaviour change towards them, at least eventually.

[tokyokyotoxx]

great info, thanks!

Its 7pm here so we decided to give them another visit. As soon as we put them together, Sheldon lifted his leg and peed on Howard, haha.
Howard nipped at Sheldon, so Mark pinned him, he stopped.
They were getting into some rough wrestling, so he pinned both of them. Since then they are doing not to bad, still mounting each other and such, but not being rough.

Their 3 story homemade cage has a sectioning system for when they are being cleaned, so weve been keeping 1 in each section. They can somewhat see each other and can talk to each other.

[deguconvert]

Sounds like you've got things well in hand now, and certainly are making successful use of Smux's recommendations! I hope it will completely turn things around for you all! Let us know how things are going, please.

[smux]

If they start to do anything worse than chittering at each other when sharing the split cage, it would be a good idea to add something so they can't see each other, but it is a good sign that they aren't misbehaving too badly. You'll be glad to know that lifting the leg and doing as he did is normal behaviour, it's a way of saying he's "so not interested" in letting the other be the dominant one and he is that disinterested that HE feels THEY are owned by him and not the other way around. A fight after this is natural (someone's claim to dominance is challenged, fighting over this is natural because the one challenging is saying he could SO take the other guy in a fight and won't give him the satisfaction of being above him in hierarchy without one), and should be allowed, but ONLY if the fighting isn't rough. If the fighting gets rough to the stage that they are a furball it should definitely be stopped. In your case I would understand if you erred on the side of caution here, they're at that age where you would rather protect them and they are also more likely to get into furball fights that could do damage to one or both of them. The stage at which I stop fights is when they drop-kick each other around the cage (that or push them...it starts with them both on their hind legs playing "slapsies" then one will suddenly fly back, against the cage mesh usually) as it rarely returns to normal from there without a little angry voice aimed at the two of them and sometimes a little slap (not a hard slap, I'd say a lot less than the kind an owner might give to a naughty dog and reduced in power for the difference in size :-)) on the head or upper back or a tap downward on the head or nose (same as the slap I mentioned but a lot softer and with one finger usually) to let them know I can do more than just make angry noises if they continue. They usually scamper away from each other at this point, and more often than not it works and they don't continue the fighting. I only ever use this kind of force when they are fighting or being very naughty (which fighting is anyway :-)), obviously...it helps to let them know what I consider to be bad behaviour because they only get this treatment when they are bad and they get love and treats when they are good. I am not suggesting you try this, but bear it in mind if the problems get worse or don't seem to be getting better...and only take this route if you or the other half is confident of the level of strength that will be used and also that the little bugger won't retaliate. My guys know not to retaliate because they'll get a lot worse if they do, but apparently not everyone has smart degus and some of them like to fight back :-)

One member (Arumanii, IIRC) mentioned that they would hold both degus in a dominance hold, one per hand, and force them to face each other in a way that neither could fight with the other. This is a good way to let both of them know that no matter WHO of the two is the dominant of the two, neither of them is #1 because you'll always hold that position...the only coveted position is #1, although degus probably don't want to be lowest nor do they want to consider themselves as sharing the lowest so maybe fighting over who isn't going to be the lowest might happen instead although I would think the fighting wouldn't be as vicious.
I have also used this "double dominance" hold in the past, but not seriously for this reason...I've done it to keep control over two degus who were fighting before, but not done it to try to teach them anything :-)

[tokyokyotoxx]

They could see each other around the separator at first, but we covered it with a cardboard box and shavings so they cant see each other at all. They only see each other if we are visiting with him, as Howard if hes on top will climb down to try and get a look at Sheldon. They do talk to each other though, usually if they have been separated due to fighting they will "swear" at each other from their sections haha.

Mark has been stopping them when it gets to drop kick mode, because then it will end in Howard bleeding.

Ill let Mark know about the little tap on the nose, Im sure that would actually be quite useful, and easier than pinning.

They havent chittered at each other in quite some time, the only noise they do to each other is the teeth grinding, and irritated sounds.

Im positive they will work it out, I completely understand their raging hormones and feelings of angst at this time, its like battling teenagers.

Speaking of which, Im going to go give them a bit of a meet, and let them switch separations. I have to keep switching them sides multiple times a day because the bottom section has the wheel.

Now, in a few months we plan on building them a new cage again, as this cage is the its lovely, but we need to get to know degu's and how they like things, what we can change etc. The new cage is going to be glass doored, with plywood sides, more running area, different wheel set up, and we have more space to make it even bigger and a bit taller. We also will be doing the separation differently. We no longer want any wire, and we want the cage to have the lights mounted and shining down from the top, as we added the lights later on this cage, so we have them mounted outside the wire, 1 on each level.

[whizzer27]

How do you perfect this dominance hold you've been talking about ? I've currently got 2 boys 1 yrs old that are ok for 20/30mins but then back turning and wrestling etc - so I think this will help, plus we're planning to have a sleep over at the beginning of the new year - wish me luck!

[smux]

In reply 2 I linked to www.degutopia.co.uk/dominancearticle.pdf which gives the basics...I guess perfecting it requires practice. Most importantly of all it requires confidence in what you are doing so again experience from practice will help there. With me and most of the degus, I can have them on my hand and I can flip my hand as they run on it so they are going from the back to the palm or vice versa...dexterity like that can help too, and again that requires confidence in their safety :-)

Oh, and I've had them jump from me and I've caught them in mid-air...that's more about saving them than anything though...and saying all that doesn't mean if you can't do this then you won't be able to do the dominance hold, it just means that it won't be so useful for you at first. With practice you will be able to grab a degu and get them into the dominance hold in one quick movement using only one hand and without causing them discomfort.

With the wrestling, make sure you have a "bad boys!" voice that you use when they're boxing and it starts to get nasty. I've mentioned the tap and the slap above, both are methods you could use for punishing them when they are naughty, but always start with the angry voice and always NORMALLY talk with them in a nice voice so they can learn the difference. Over time, the angry voice will be enough to stop them, and I tend to do a voice in-between the two when they do stop and call them good boys so they know they're safe :-)

[whizzer27]

Great thanks for that i'll give it a go later xx