Coco
Warbling Degu
Coco, Casey, Bailey,Sky, Jess and Dylan
Posts: 25
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Post by Coco on Dec 1, 2010 17:33:08 GMT
:-[Please can you help!?
I have got 3 female degu's just under a year old. Two weeks ago I introduced two female babies (about 8 weeks old). This was going, all getting along well, until a few days ago when the two most dominant females (Coco & Casey) started to fight very badly, both receiving injuries.
I have had to separate them as I'm in fear of one of them ending up severely injured or even killed.
I've tried to re-introduce them to each other on a couple of occasions (in the bath) and although they seem to calm down a bit, Coco is constantly trying to dominate Casey and never leaving her along. As soon as they go back in the cage with the rest of the group, Coco constantly follows Casey around trying to mount her, urinating on her & then they just end up locked together in vicious fighting. This sometimes results in them turning on one of the others and fighting with them as well.
I have no way of separating them in the cage so I have got Coco in a separate cage but I don't like to do this as she is on her own.
I really don't know what to do and how to sort this out. I don't want to have to split the group and have two separate groups as I know I wont have the time to devote to each of them like that.
Does anyone have any experience with this or do you have any suggestions on what I could do please?
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Post by smux on Dec 1, 2010 18:59:44 GMT
Behaviourally speaking, it sounds like the two dominant females are either having problems with being second in command to the other (the group has risen to 5 from 3, it wasn't so bad being 2/3 but 2/5 means 3 others can see you're not #1) or they're fighting over who is fostering the babies and being their mum. How is the third girl with the babies? If you can be around for them, I would try the third one with the babies in their own cage and leave the two dominant girls on their own so they can see that if they fight over the babies then neither of them gets to be mum. Saying that though, I'm inclined to believe that it's a dominance thing and removing the babies would let the group settle down and hopefully get back to normal.
I introduced babies to my 3 girlies once and they got into spats over them, and that was just when they were outside the cage...I protected the baby as they were the priority at that time, and took them away and the girls calmed down straight away...so in my case, the baby became a new member of the group and the hierarchy was challenged, but without that challenge it went back to normal. Saying that though, I don't think there is much of a structured hierarchy among the girlies, they just do their thing as and when they want to.
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Coco
Warbling Degu
Coco, Casey, Bailey,Sky, Jess and Dylan
Posts: 25
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Post by Coco on Dec 1, 2010 20:04:21 GMT
Thanks for your advice will try and take the babies out and try and get back to normal. Do you think it would be possible to re-introduce the babies back at a later stage?
Would it be a good idea to put the cages together straight away or to put into another room?
Play time in the pen was not a problem do you think to keep the play times together or separate?
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Post by smux on Dec 1, 2010 21:42:13 GMT
Normally adding babies is a simple process as you know the babies are in no danger and they take to the group fairly easily. It may be in this case that the babies are too old to be ignored in the hierarchy but too young to be considered a challenge (meaning no way they'd get top spot in hierarchy) and this is where the problems lie.
Once you take the babies out, it will be a good idea to keep the cage next to your current cage so they can still see and smell each other, as per a proper introduction with adult degus, and then follow the guidelines for a proper introduction as they might be too old to be considered babies by the other 3. Playtime is also something to consider, if they are fine in the playpen and the adults are fine afterwards once they go in the cage (I mean after you've tried splitting babies and adults, not based on what you've seen so far) then they're comfortable enough with each other.
If they really are comfortable for a long time while in the playpen, you might find that the reason for the fighting is the size of the cage...it may be that it's adequate for 3 but isn't enough for 5 and this is why they are arguing and it's nothing to do with hierarchy :-)
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Coco
Warbling Degu
Coco, Casey, Bailey,Sky, Jess and Dylan
Posts: 25
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Post by Coco on Dec 1, 2010 23:11:53 GMT
Thanks again for the info. Dont know what size cage to have? My cage is 1m L x 60cm D x 90cm H going by what they have at the pet shop!
I really think that has got to be with the fostering of the babies as each of the adults are fine on their own with the babies and its just when the two dominant females are together that the fighting starts.
If it is the cage im trying to order a new cage, but not in stock till late December the new dimensions will be 63cm D x 94cm W x 159cm H
The only concern i have is when I take the babies out i will still have the same problem with Coco and Casey in the cage. will do a complete cage clean and disinfect before putting them back together. Do you think it is a good idea to change the layout of the cage
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Post by smux on Dec 1, 2010 23:46:28 GMT
Disinfection is possibly going too far, although it will guarantee 100% removal of any scents...merely changing the substrate is probably enough esp. if it's hay which tends to give off quite a strong scent of its own when it's newly taken out of the packet. Also spraying air freshener in the room will have an effect on the scent in the cage although obviously don't directly spray the cage unless it's an organic spray made without chemicals. Moving items around in the cage might give them something new to investigate but if you do too much it's like a culture shock and might possibly reset the hierarchy structure. Perhaps keep it as is for now or maybe put the third girl in with coco for company, and do all this when you've got all day to be around with them just in case. My personal opinion, based on the 3 girls being a bit stronger than you make them sound, is to take the babies out and put the girls back in and they should go back to normal even with the scent in the cage...the worst the girls might do is go around reclaiming anywhere the babies scent-marked (if they even did...I don't think it's something they would do at that age, everywhere's pretty much theirs). Perhaps do this when you have a few hours to be around them, and see how they react...if they get into serious fights straight away, break it up and put Coco in another room in the other cage for a few hours to give her a feel for total solitude then put the cage back with the other one. Have you heard of the dominance hold? I've mentioned it to quite a few people here and it's vital for letting the dominant degus know that you are the boss and they are next in command to you and is a way to ensure that when you tell them something they will do it or get the hold, which they don't like one bit. www.degutopia.co.uk/dominancearticle.pdfI personally use two hands but can deftly do it with one hand and thus hold one degu in each hand if I have to, and in much the same way you have problems with Coco and Casey, I've had problems among the 3 boys in my room that I've dealt with using a double dominance hold :-) Finally, remember that they don't like the hold but that doesn't mean they won't like you for using it...degus thrive on structure and if you're a part of that structure you're that little bit closer to them and that means a lot to a degu, just don't overuse it or (as with my Damien) they get immune to it, and trust me you don't want this...I have to invent new punishments for Damien (although he has been mostly well behaved recently so I don't have to use them). And just so you know, the reason they don't like it is because you have easy access to their soft bits (stomach and pretty much everything underneath), so this can be used to your advantage too if you want to strike a little bit of extra fear into them...personally I give them a kiss on the stomach, but never anything worse than that (no pretending to bite, for instance, no poking, gentle tickle is fine but they probably won't like it)...I use the word "fear" there, and it probably does scare them a bit, but once they realise you haven't hurt them every time you do it they will understand that you would never hurt them. VERY finally, once you have used this hold on a degu, right them in your hand and let them come to you for kisses and cuddles...let them know that you still love them no matter what they do, because if they ever do something SERIOUSLY naughty then this hold followed by no love will come as a much needed shock to them.
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Coco
Warbling Degu
Coco, Casey, Bailey,Sky, Jess and Dylan
Posts: 25
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Post by Coco on Dec 2, 2010 20:19:06 GMT
hi , Thanks again for all the information and advice you are giving, it is appreciated. I have now cleaned out the main cage and have put minimal accessories back in there. I've put coco & casey back in on their own to see how the interact. Unfortunately we have had a lot of fighting straight away with wounds being inflicted on both. Casey started off chasing Coco but now Coco is chasing Casey round constantly and Casey is screeching all the time. They are just not settling. Coco is doing a lot a tail swishing and teeth grinding but it seems that it is Casey starting the fighting when Coco gets too close. I have been doing the dominance hold on each of them as well and then putting them back in. Do you know what the signs of dominance are, do they try and mount and ruffled up the fir? This is what Coco is trying to do and Casey is lifting up her rear end, turning away and running off squeeking. Could this be a case of perseverance with them? I am watching over them with a glove on to break up the fights! Any further advice would be appreciated very much! thank you
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Post by Whizz on Dec 2, 2010 20:31:55 GMT
The lifting up of her rear is a sort of 'I will not bow down to you' gesture, and the constant mounting is a dominance contest (whom ever is on top is trying to be dominant).
You said they were under a year old? A goo reaches sexual maturity at 58 weeks, do you roughly know how old your girls are? From about 6 months onwards to the 58 week mark they are going through their maturity, which causes a lot of fights (though generally in boys more than girls). So they could be going through that, but obviously it could be something else.
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Post by smux on Dec 2, 2010 20:35:10 GMT
I considered the possibility of it being puberty, but the factor that changed the situation is the babies and they were fine before that so I think the babies are the "lynch-pin" in the situation which has caused problems with the hierarchy
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Post by Whizz on Dec 2, 2010 20:40:00 GMT
True, perhaps a combination of both Puberty and hierarchy? Their trying to obviously settle whose boss but their puberty is making it worse? I know that in Goo, the girls are *sometimes* better than boys, but if you relate them to humans, girls are worse than boys. So maybe a combination of the too is just making them both so ratty they can't handle each other? Obviously the added babies makes the difference, just wondering if the puberty stage could have made it worse?
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Coco
Warbling Degu
Coco, Casey, Bailey,Sky, Jess and Dylan
Posts: 25
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Post by Coco on Dec 2, 2010 21:33:52 GMT
Coco is around 9 months and Casey about 8. Coco has always been 'boss' and it does seem a coincidence that this is going on since the introduction of babies, who's knows, it may have happened anyway? There is less fighting now, although Coco is constantly following Casey around but Casey is still running away.
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Post by smux on Dec 2, 2010 23:32:12 GMT
If you put Coco in the dominance hold as per the link I provided, without any stern talking to her as she hasn't done anything wrong, and wait for her to stop fidgeting (and she will) that is her acceptance of your dominance over her and she has basically decided to give up trying to escape. This will let her know that you are the boss, although regular attempts at this may be required to hammer home this fact, and eventually when she is naughty and you do this WITH stern words she will know to listen and hopefully not to fidget, and hopefully she will also learn to respond to voice commands over time so when you tell her no she will heed it or get the hold.
And again always remember to show your love afterwards, kisses and cuddles let them know that they've not been that bad that you feel any different towards them
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Post by deguconvert on Dec 3, 2010 4:55:07 GMT
Both your girls are in prime puberty age, and although the babies tipped the scales for them, they must have been so closely balanced that neither one was really top goo. So . . . having the babies come into the mix has made it a necessity for them to figure it out for keeps (or at least almost keeps, as the case often is with goos). This would have happened eventually, and it is actually probably a blessing that it is happening now, and not when they are say two years old, when a dispute over dominance would very likely end in what could be a permanent separation. This way, they'll get it figured out, and then it should be much easier to introduce the babies.
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Coco
Warbling Degu
Coco, Casey, Bailey,Sky, Jess and Dylan
Posts: 25
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Post by Coco on Dec 3, 2010 9:13:17 GMT
Thanks again for your comments and advice. Been with them alll night and they eventually wore themselves out about 3am and settled down enough to get some sleep. The fighting has stopped at the moment and they are sitting bum to bum on their house. Still a few sounds from Casey when Coco trys anything but it has not turned into more fighting for now. Did a few dominance holds last night as well but will keep this up from time to time today (usual info in the link). The other three are in a separate cage (Bailey the last of the original trio & the two babies Sky & Jess). I was thinking of re-introducing Bailey in the next day or so, to give Coco & Casey time to settle. Should I give this longer or just see how it goes? I certianly don't want to rush anything here in order to give them all the best chance of getting back together.
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Post by smux on Dec 3, 2010 9:38:31 GMT
Bringing the third girl back will upset the balance a little, as you're aware, but it's up to you because even if you introduce her later it'll have the same effect as introducing her now and the only difference will be if you introduced her now the other two haven't resolved their hierarchy issues yet.
Do either of them sniff around the cage or do the "yes sniff" (where they sniff an area and nod their head vigorously, I think it's a strong scent they've found and one they're worried about so they are being extra careful to identify it) because if so the scents in the cage or nearby might add to the problem. My Damien and Loki are USUALLY fine on their own but if Gizmo gets near the cage it sets them off fighting. Gizmo is now about 2 metres away from them and they're usually well behaved. In your case it's a difficult one because of Bailey...got to keep the babies away but Bailey near...makes me think it would be better putting Bailey back in (after a long dust bath to remove baby scents) and put the babies somewhere a little further away. The babies will be fine on their own together, although it would be better to have them in with the girls.
Can't remember if it was ever suggested, and don't think it was, but any chance one of the babies is a male? If so, this would cause fighting among mature females looking to be impregnated (any female degu under a certain age, they like to repopulate the species as often as possible)...they don't care that the babies are too young, they'd wait...they just want the rights and a chance to keep trying until it works.
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Post by deguconvert on Dec 4, 2010 6:10:05 GMT
How long has Bailey been apart from Coco and Casey?? That will be a part of the equation and having a bit of an idea of how difficult it might be.
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Coco
Warbling Degu
Coco, Casey, Bailey,Sky, Jess and Dylan
Posts: 25
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Post by Coco on Dec 4, 2010 19:42:35 GMT
Have checked the sex of both babies and they are female. Coco and Casey have calmed down well both sleeping in the hammock and grooming each other. Bailey the other adult female has been out for two days now, she is in the other room with the babies.
Dont think that Bailey will have a problem with the other two, will take it carefully. Was thinking of trying tomorrow in the morning. Will keep the two babies in the other room, then will start moving the cage around getting closer and closer to the main cage and checking all their reactions.
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Post by deguconvert on Dec 4, 2010 23:49:11 GMT
Sounds good!
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Coco
Warbling Degu
Coco, Casey, Bailey,Sky, Jess and Dylan
Posts: 25
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Post by Coco on Dec 6, 2010 20:02:32 GMT
Not having any success with putting back together. Casey did not take to Bailey yesterday and I had to put Bailey back with the babies. Tried putting all of them together today but Casey is still the instigator of all the problems. She keeps biting Bailey and wont leave her alone. I have now put Casey in a separete cage in the hope the other 4 settle down ok. Has anyone every had a degu speyed? I know this can help with female dominance and agression but dont know of anyone that has gone through this with degu's. Any advice would be appreciated!
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Post by Whizz on Dec 7, 2010 19:45:23 GMT
I know that there is a method of solitary confinement, when you put a single goo on it's own for about a day or couple of days. So maybe do this with Casey? She will end up craving the love and attention from other goo's, of course this means you have to give her a bit more attention but hopefully she'll understand that if this fighting keeps going on, she'll be all on her own with no friends.
I've never heard of female goo's being speyed if I'm honest, I've heard of male's being neutered and I know that for males you have to wait until they are over a year of age, so i would guess this is the same for females.
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