Noticed some lumps on Elsevier

[smux]

Up until now I haven't been too worried about it, and was hoping that they were just swellings from a fall or something. The first lump was under his chin and felt like a bit of bone (although I didn't press too hard) to the touch, which I decided not to worry about as it would go down on its own, but more recently one on his stomach has appeared so it has had me a little worried about the possibility of cancer/carcinoma (hopefully the latter, malignant is easier to deal with) so I am going down to the RSPCA tomorrow to have it checked out.

I became more worried about it today when he showed extreme signs of lethargy (spends all day in his house sleeping or at least lying down, and I have to go in there and get him out to get any response from him), and suddenly he seems a lot thinner than he did on previous days...this isn't something that's been slowly happening, he definitely wasn't lethargic or thin until today...although one good thing about this is he doesn't fight back with Dante any more (although he doesn't let him dominate either, just the fighting back isn't as vicious as it used to be) so I have them sharing a cage at the moment. The lumps on their own can be explained away as I did above, but when you bring lethargy and weight loss into the mix it is a textbook case (at least according to degutopia) of cancer/carcinoma. There is no reason for weight loss, he has been seen to be eating as recently as yesterday and doesn't have a total loss of appetite or anything, although he does seem to have no interest in treats (gave him a whole peanut and he didn't even eat half of it...although this might be due to the lump on his chin and it may not actually be as diagnosed). There is another symptom which isn't as easily explained away as the others and it has also started today, and that's a minor loss of co-ordination...this may be from lack of strength though. Apart from the lumps, he seems physically fine otherwise, it's just the general demeanour he has at the moment which is giving me cause for concern.

This may result in me having little or no luck with regards to adequate help from the RSPCA and having to instead contact CJ Hall, a well known small animal vet in London who should have the experience required to treat him adequately, but I am not looking forward to the cost of treatment from there although if there is any way I can make payment to ensure he survives I am going to do it.

Lastly, there is no reason (no cause, at least) for him to have got any form of cancer from his environment, I am a smoker (not heavy...probably 10-15 a day max) but I put the degus first always...I smoke out of my window always, and Elsevier's in another room anyway so that wouldn't be an issue for him even if it was in my room.

Did a quick google search and found someone else's experience with this sort of thing at www.paw-talk.net/forums/f12/degu-with-lump-possible-tumour-25929.html ...I didn't realise that the lumps grew so rapidly with tumours/cancer or I might have considered it as a possibility...the fact that they grew so quick is why I had discounted the possibility originally, thinking that only a swelling from a fall would cause such a rapid lump to occur.

Anyway, off to bed as I have an appointment tomorrow then I'll come home for around 12ish...and I go to the RSPCA at 2ish.

[jusdepomme]

I hope everything will be okay for you goo. When Norris had an abscess in his mouth because of his teeth not being aligned, he also developped a lump under his chin and was rather lethargic. I hope your goo have something similar and not a cancer

[nickymills30]

oh hun, hope eveything goes ok today for you xxx

[deguconvert]

That is very worrying, Smux. I expect you are feeling rather unsettled about the whole question. I do hope it will prove to be something that can be treated successfully without great cost to you. I'll be thinking of you!

[nuttz]

aww poor elsevier hope everything goes ok today at the RSPCA! a few years ago back in england (when we had many money problems) we used to use the RSPCA, they were fantastic but im not sure about how or if they deal with degus? although saying that, if they do not deal with degus i am SURE that they will advise a vet that does.. they have lists of vets that work along side them for treating animals when their owners have financial difficulties!
i hope that it isnt anything serious, please let us know how you get on, im wishing you and your goo all the best (fingers are crossed!) xxx

[smux]

They are the ones who suggested CJ Hall, although they are fine for basic degu care they themselves admit that it's just basic small animal care and not degu-specific. I guess cancer is the same over any animal or mammal, it's just preparation for treatment (gas levels for anaesthetic, for instance) which differs, and possibly anatomy in some cases (depending on where they need to operate).

I'm not too worried for him, as I think he'll recover from it (he's still young, he has the energy) and I am sure CJ Hall will be able to provide some sort of payment plan or something which will allow me to get him the treatment...cost isn't the issue, it's just getting the money :-)

[nuttz]

smux, i am sure they will offer a payment plan, after all..any vet should have the animals best interest at heart and not the money! about 12 years ago one of my dogs got run over by a van, she had broken her pelvis and had to undergo lots of surgery, she now had a metal pin holding her together so to speak...lol it cost a fortune almost 1000 pounds, we just paid what we could every month until about 2 years later we paid the bill in total........a nightmare...lol she is now on her last legs..literally bless her, she hasnt much life left in the poor girl..im dreading that day!!! anyway......
i think as long as the vet is experienced in small animal / rodent care regardless if they are degu specific or not your goo should be in safe hands so dont go worrying too much, the worry is mainly down to the anaesthetic levels as they have to be extra careful with such small animals as its easy to overdose them, but if they have lots of experience then im sure he will be ok (he sounds like a little fighter) as for the other factors, ie..cancer and such, well im sure they know what theyre doing and dealing with, you have to gain some trust, they will get to the bottom of whats causing these lumps!
i have a dog that has had a lump on his back,right on his spine for about 4 years, it just appeared one night out of the blue, it was quite big to start with but gradually it has got smaller, so much so that its hardly visible anymore.. when we took him to the vets the vet just said there is nothing to worry about, he did go on to explain something but at that time even the children didnt understand spanish very well so i couldnt tell you exactly what was said, my dog doesnt seem to be bothered about it so im hoping that this is something similar to your goo?!
like i said earlier................my fingers are crossed for you both!!!
take care xxx

[smux]

Quick update: I've spoken to CJ Hall and have a 6:30 appointment with them. My flatmate is taking him to the RSPCA and if any of us (including the vet) think it is in his best interests to go to CJ Hall rather than have the RSPCA deal with the issue, that's what we'll do (I will call to cancel the appointment if we decide to go with the RSPCA). Initial consultation will be £35 with CJ Hall and if he has to be operated on (very likely) then the total cost will be £300. They usually require at least half of the money before the operation can go ahead, but we can discuss that when we go down there. I have enough for the consultation, and they may prescribe medication to help him get a bit better without the surgery to give us a little time to get together the money.

[nuttz]

well lets just see what happens later as to what happens next..
im guessing that if you havent got half the amount of money and the degu desperately needs an op..like ASAP...im sure, well i sure hope that the vet will decide the go ahead regardless...
its such a shame vets costs are so high in the UK.. over here we dont have consultation fees, plus any vet fees do seem to be so much cheaper! for example..to have my male dog neutered it only cost me 60 euros and that was including everything, even the antibiotics after!

[Bexi87]

Aw Smux, I hope he is ok

[smux]

It isn't cancer, or at least they don't think so. The lump under his chin may be tooth related and it may be an abcess or something similar. Although I don't understand fully about the lump on the stomach, it is something to do with him losing weight and it's something inside poking out. You'd think it not being cancer would be good news, but the doctor says the prognosis isn't good if he doesn't get a bit better as he can't be operated on in this state. I've been given metacam/baytril and some recovery food to try to feed (or forcefeed) him, and the consultation and medication (plus two injections, one of saline to boost his food intake a little and one of baytril...both of which cost about £30) have cost me over £82, £42 of which I was able to pay at the time.

Further treatment IF he does pull through is going to cost almost £400 on top of this although I am hoping that the RSPCA can provide veterinary funding aid for this and I am going to call them tomorrow to find out. I am also going to keep on trying the RSPCA hospital as Elsevier is extremely weak even after the treatment (although I do think he has perked up a little...his ears were down before and they're at full attention now) and I am sure he would be able to be put on some sort of drip either tonight or tomorrow to try to get some fluids and nourishment into his body, which is basically what was done at CJ Hall's with the syringe so I guess leaving that until tomorrow is the best option.

All in all, the vet doesn't think the prognosis is good, so it may all end badly for Elsevier, but me and the flatmate will be here with him at all times although all he does at the moment is sleep in his house.

[nickymills30]

oh hun, i really hope he picks up, sending loads of goggles hugs to you all xxxxx

[Bexi87]

Oh no Smux, me & the girls will be sending you & Elsevier loads of gooey hugs over the next few days with all fingers & toes crossed.

[nuttz]

could is be a possibility that maybe he has eaten something thats caused this lump on his stomach? i know im no vet but many moons ago i had a hamster that ate something, it caused quite a big lump on the side of his tummy.. i was thinking, if this could be the case, maybe whatever it is has caused some sort of blockage which in turn has made it uncomfortable for him to eat?? i know i may be completely wrong but i cant help but wonder?!
as for the lump on his chin, well thats good news.. at least its not the dreaded cancer... this could also be a factor as to why he hasnt been eating and losing weight!
is he drinking fluids ok? and passing stools normally? i take it the vet covered all these questions?
in the mean time, all you can do is give him lots of love and attention hun.. keep offering food to him, preferably softer food thats more crumbly rather than crunchy, im not sure but maybe something sweeter than the norm offered may get his energy levels up a bit..
im hoping for the best for you and your poor little fighter, there is nothing worse than having to sit back and wait, but i guess thats all you can do.. fingers crossed *sends lots of hugs*
nuttz xxx

[smux]

Sadly it was all in vain as he passed away sone time between 2am and 8:30am last night. It may have been a factor, but Dante slept over him to keep his body warm even after death. This just goes to show how much they loved each other, although I know Dante will survive his brother easier than if it was the other way around, he seems fine alone usually.

I will be burying him tonight in a pringles tube, all the degus love them so I think it would be a fitting tribute. Will post some pics of him and his brother later as well.

[nuttz]

oh my lord.......................................im so very sorry smux!!!
you did everything you could do hun, maybe the time was right for him, one thing for sure is..he wont be suffering any longer!!!
bless his little cotton toes
bless little dante..he obviously loved him, so glad that elsevier had him close by when the end came!!!
the pringle tube sounds perfect hun......my thoughts are with you!!!
xxx *hugs* xxx

[Bexi87]

I'm so sorry for your loss. RIP little one

[smux]

The thing is I don't believe it was his time, I think I should have had him checked out as soon as I noticed the lump under his chin and he'd still be alive today and probably already over the treatment he would have gone through...although, saying that, if it was his time then he would have died on the operating table and I would have paid out the huge bill for the vet's time so maybe I should believe he was due to go either way.

I am at least glad that I spent the money I did on the vet last night, he wouldn't have been in pain from then until when he finally went. We managed 3 feeds between 9pm and 2am when the advice for treatment with the recovery food is 4 feeds of 2ml a day, so we did what we could to get his strength back up but he just didn't want to eat it. We also fed him a little water through syringe too, in case he was in need of water, and he did seem to take that a bit easier.

This has given me reason to think about all the degus I have, and it is very possible that I will now give away the new babies for sure. Not quite so sure about the two girls and one boy yet, they seem happy here, but they might be happier elsewhere. I might also put the 3 girls up for adoption too, I originally got them with the intent to find them a new home but it just seemed that they were fine here so I let them stay.
Only ones I am definitely keeping are my 4 originals and Dante (whom has a home for life here, I said that from the start as he's been through too many homes already), although as one of the originals is Theresa I probably should either give her away with her daughters or keep her daughters.

Oh, and I said above about Dante lying over him maybe being a factor, I don't believe it was as he was lying over Elsevier's lower half...I think Dante had more care than to just drape himself over his weak brother.

[nuttz]

its no use saying if you did this, if you did that... all you should know is that you did your best......dont beat yourself up..
i did the exact same thing after we lost our dog in august, i cut her fur a couple of days prior to her death, i thought she was too hot, she looked awful with her new hair cut, so silly.. also..the morning of her death i gave her an anti-biotic pill... i raelly believed it was my fault........but, thinking about it now, i know it wasnt!
just as its not your fault!!!
no, im sure that dante wasnt a factor, animals are strange sometimes, they get the sense somethings not right, im sure he was just trying to comfort his lil bro!!!
as for giving up your other goo´s...... all i can say is, please give it some time before you make any decisions, just give yourself some time to come to terms of whats just happened, time is a great healer! xxx

[smux]

Thanks for the suggestion to give it time...I am just saying what I am feeling at the moment, and I was aware I might feel different later, however the way this has made me feel has really hit me hard, even more so than when Loki fell from my balcony and I decided to give up looking for him (ignoring that it was a happy ending that time, as I went back out and found him and he's fine now), and reducing the number of degus I have will reduce the chances of me feeling this again.

Dante has been wondering where his brother (foster brother, I should point out, I don't think they're related) is, and I have seen him look into the other cage to try to find Elsevier, and I am going to either try to introduce him to the other boys or to the baby boy, sadly all of these have dominant personalities like him although I also know my boys do buckle under the pressure if another is more dominant so it may work out. Oh, and before we went to the vet's, Dante was making a lot of squeaking noises as if to let us know something was up.

Also, I'm aware it isn't fully my fault, but I *should* have taken him to the vet when I noticed the first lump under his chin. On the flip side, if I take them to the vet for every possible scare I'd have to pay out tons of money for their health, but this really was something I should have had checked out (or at least should have posted about it, perhaps someone would have suggested it might have been an abcess). Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I won't beat myself up over it, I'll just mourn the loss and move on, and never forget him.

Right now though, I have another 14 potential deaths to look after, 11 of which I have a fairly strong attachment to and 8 of which I have a very strong attachment to (the first 3 with little attachment is obviously the new babies, the next 3 being the older babies), and given the average age is less than 7 that means that on average 2 of these will die per year. Morbid thinking, I know, but I'm a realist.