Suti and Limppu are heading off in a bad direction

[teemu]

I've posted about it sometimes in the past, but it again seems like Suti's absolutely out of control hormones are causing some real issues between her and Limppu. She has sometimes been better, but now she's been really problematic for a good while.

They're basically fighting every day now. It's not serious physical conflict yet, but there hasn't really been a day when someone doesn't scream her head off to the other - usually both, usually multiple times a day. Hard shoving, grabbing and nosing-off have all become everyday stuff.

I think the main issue is that Suti seems to basically be in heat, or at least hormonally overactive, for most of the month. It's sometimes been better, but now it'd become really harsh. Combined with the fact that Limppu decided to grow up and actually dtart acting like normal (i.e. she will actually take real issue with her stepsister just grabbing her and shouting), and it sometimes feels really volatile.

The issues are plentiful. The main situations are Suti just picking fights, Suti getting really jealous and ornery over something random, both wanting to be exactly in the same spot at the same time, and Suti basically just having heat episodes. There's also this weird thing where I can't give them treats if both are in the cage, since Suti will just sit there complaining about how Limppu is going to try to steal her treat (instead of just eating it...) and then just flipping out if Limppu approaches at all. It's not a mouth issue, she eats just fine, she just seems so bent out of shape over this kind of jealousmess that it captures her whole attention.

All in all, their relationship seems to be getting much more volatile, and I'm afraid of when the last straw hits...

There's also the fact that there literally aren't enough hours in a day to get Suti to work through her excess energy. We got them a bigger cage over the summer, hoping it would give her more opportunities to manage. It worked for some weeks and now it's been like this again for over a month. She's cobstantly demanding to be let out, even if she just was out for a long time. In the evenings she often just screams through the bars if anyone gets close because she's so angry at having to stay in the cage. She also destroys toys so quickly that we just actually can't replace them for her fast enough...

I've been putting the idea of spaying off because it is a very intrusive and traumatic procedure. However, it's clear that she's very unhappy and that the situation is becoming untenable. Today they almost came to blows over seeds (of which there were plenty for both), and I actually had to push them away from each other and take the treats away to stop them from going off at each other.

I'm really not pleased with the idea, but I don't really know if anything else could fix it. Suti is just actually, for real in heat much of the time and that's really starting to break things down. Still, the operation, and especially the recovery, are really daunting to me. How the heck will I be able to keep her restrained and not wreck herself afterwards...

[moletteuk]

I don't really know that much about this, but I wanted to say that I think this requires some careful research. I just know that if you remove the ovaries from a human, they go into immediate menopause, which creates these kinds of mood difficulties rather than solves them. Problem is that female hormones are very under-researched across the board and so it might be difficult to get good answers. Definitely worth discussing very thoroughly with a vet, and I would ask about hormone supplementation or contraceptives. If it does seem like spaying might help, then I wonder if it is possible to remove just the ovaries.

Are you definitely seeing a cyclical pattern? My girls were affected by their hormones for around seven days out of every 21, so more than the 3 days often quoted, but not close to most of the time.

I wouldn't rush into anything at the moment. Your cage arrangements are very up in the air at the moment, you never know, maybe it might be possible to pair Kaneli with Limppu and Suti might be more content on her own for a while, at least as a trial before a life threatening surgery.

Is it possible that the comings and goings of new degus and arrangements might be making Suti worse at the moment?

[teemu]

Yeah, I agree that it's definitely not something I would just go to a vet and ask for. I have had bad experiences with just castration, and that is like an order of magnitude less serious of an operation. I guess Pulla's tumor removal might be up there, but removal of an entire organ might still rank higher - and it's high enough in any case that it's all very dangerous and carries real risks of fatality. It's mostly that for now I have not even wanted to think about it as a possibility, despite it being discussed at one point here, but I might have to at least put it on the table if it doesn't become more tenable otherwise. I'm thinking I should at least consult the vet for input on how dangerous it is, whether she has any opinion on how much it would even do, and indeed alternatives.

Her heat cycles seem to be really erratic. I have tried to keep note of when she seems to be in heat (not writing it down, but just noting the rough week and date of the month), and it seems that she may go into heat (or states that really seem like it) at any given time, and it can last for a long time. Just now, she was in a state for well over a week (closer to 2), literally hot to the touch and very moody and hyperactive. And even when she's not in heat, she is very, very active, and also very possessive over basically everything in the cage, so it's sometimes hard to say when it ends in any case - she's ornery anyhow. The most common problem that causes fights is that Limppu is doing something, just some random activity, and Suti just has to go there to push her around and pick fights. Or if Suti is doing something, she will blow a fuse if Limppu even comes near. And it's not just some protesting and complaining, the screaming gets really loud.

In general it just feels that she's really unhappy and dissatisfied, just incredibly full of bottled energy and nothing is enough to discharge it. I'm not sure if it's due to her hormonal issues, or if her hyperactivity and hormones are making each other worse, but I struggle to manage her temperament and demands. We're trying all kinds of toys, and I make time on most days to get her out of the cage, but that never lasts long enough at all. So it's really hard to know how I could improve her situation.

A related issue is that she is very skinny. I think it's a combination of not much appetite and simply being much too amped up to have time to eat (except when fighting over treats). Her teeth were checked some time ago, and they did trim an overgrown tooth, but it did not seem to notably improve her appetite at all (except for a short time, likely because she was making up for being able to eat even less than she wanted to). She'd rather run around all day than stop and eat, and I think it's affecting her really badly when combined with how her biology seems to be acting up.

She has always been really dominant and very aggressive, socially. She did exile Posso from the cage when they were still pups, after all, and there did not even seem to be any real reason for it. She's managed with Limppu because, I think, she's always been very passive and very non-confrontational. In the past Limppu was the weird quiet one who just did not really seem to even understand when Suti was pushing her around or having issues. Now, during this year, Limppu seems to have somehow grown into a rather normal degu, and it's been really hard on Suti to come to terms with the idea that she can't just push her around with no repercussions.

(Even now, Limppu is really taciturn most of the time, and she generally seems happy with hanging around and living a quiet life, it's just that now she's going to punch back if harassed.)

It's true that there are many options available for this whole situation, as far as Kaneli goes. Limppu has been really negative about any other degus in the past, but it's all something to consider if things get worse. The good thing is that if they actually start fighting for real, their cage is divisible, so I can quickly take emergency measures. And I have a whole spare cage as well, so it's not as if things can go terribly wrong, even if I have to intervene in the current arrangements. Of course, it'd be nicer if I didn't have to.