Group Drama after Bereavement

[Rtho87]

My remaining degus (Alice, Mara and Ava) had a falling out today. They have been getting on harmoniously over the last year, and were fine immediately after Lily's death, but I think it's sinking in that she isn't coming back and they're now trying to reorder the hierarchy? 


The youngsters (Mara and Ava, who are about 16 months old now) just would not stop harassing Alice all day with bum sniffing and attempts to mount her, and because Alice has always fancied herself as in charge, she would not back down an inch. The squabbling escalated in intensity with some boxing and kicking, and though there wasn’t any furballs of death, Ava got a split toe nail that bled and Alice got a bite near her mouth (dear God, not her mouth). It seems to be a minor wound and she is eating normally, thankfully. 


At this point, I felt it was for the best to separate Alice from the others. She is in the spare cage next to the youngsters, and I can put them very close to each other without hostility. I was thinking of reuniting Alice with each youngster separately in a neutral location tomorrow, or is this too soon? Given that they're still quite young, would it be best to wait until they're a little bit older and then slowly and carefully go through the introduction process again? 


I was also wondering if any members of the forum have had experiences with groups falling out in similar circumstances?

[savvy]

They do need to work out who is going to be in charge now. How were they after the fight? Have you tried putting Alice back now tempers have cooled?

[teemu]

As you thought, the death of a pack member very often causes upheaval in the pack. Even if the missing member was not the leader, it both stresses them out (making them more prone to fighting over things) and forces them to consider their hierarchy again. As said, it is inevitable that there will be some amount of squabbling to ascertain where things stand now. Youngsters especially will often want to see if they can push the boundaries, since as pups they will have been submissive to the adults. They've basically reached adulthood at this point, so it is within their interests (as far as their instincts tell them) to go for opportunities like this.


Like Savvy says, what you do now depends on how they are feeling now after the fight. If it looks like they're willing to calm down a bit after the fight, it's okay to let them be together again. If it starts repeating with a similar intensity (actual bites or worse), then giving them some time to think (being separated until tomorrow at least, then seeing how they're feeling now) about it will be good. So the answer really depends on how they're willing to behave after this.
As always with these, monitor the injuries, see to it that they won't get dirty (if needed, clean with sterilized water) and likely hold off on sand baths for a couple of days. If they start showing signs of getting worse or not healing, more action may be required, but usually minor nicks and cuts like this will be fine.

As a sidenote, if you have paid attention to it or the signs tend to be obvious, where are they in their heat cycles at the moment? If it's getting close to that time of the month, tensions will be running even higher than they otherwise would.

[bouncy]

Unfortunately, this could have happened, even without Lily's death.

Snoozy and Sneaky moved in with Sausage and Spud when they were five weeks old, and it was love at first squeak. Four years on, both weighed more than 70g more than alpha Sausage. The two youngsters decided alpha status should be determined by size alone, and I initially let them squabble amongst themselves. After a while, things had escalated to Spud becoming injured (eventually losing his leg) whilst defending Sausage. I separated the two pairs, and tried reintroducing several times, but it wasn't to be.

Give the others time to squabble amongst themselves, keeping the cages near each other. If reintroduction doesn't work, you can rethink then?

[moletteuk]

I would try for a few days to see if they can sort this out quickly and get back together before you resort to a longer separation, but go with your gut. Bear in mind things you do can have influence over their power, like by taking Alice out and leaving the others in you have reinforced the youngsters dominance over the cage and reduced Alice's - it's not necessarily a bad thing if you think one of the youngsters can win dominance. I think I probably would try a meet in a neutral place as that should hopefully take the territory out of the situation - but it may not if they decide it's new territory they want or if neutral places make them more agitated generally.

If you do get them all back in the cage together but they remain unsettled, you might want to put escape ledges in there that only fit one degu so Alice has a safe retreat, something like the 'lava ledges' you can buy.

[Rtho87]

Thank you savvy, teemu, bouncy and moletteuk for the suggestions and knowledgeable posts!

I tried to put Alice back in with the youngsters last night - with a heat pad as a bribe - but they almost immediately started boxing and kicking. I left them separated until this afternoon, then set up their playpen in a neutral location. I put Alice in and added each youngster separately. The response was the same with each youngster; they would ignore each other at first, give a friendly sound or nuzzle, before it would degenerate with the youngster trying to mount Alice and getting squawked at angrily, then some boxing and kicking. It then alternated between attempted mounting and boxing with occasional kicks.

I’m not sure how long to let them squabble in the playpen? They just went on and on, and I could see Alice getting tired, which makes sense given that she’s much older than them. I think she would rather run herself into the ground than submit to either of them!

From the stubbornness on both sides, I fear this isn’t going to be an easy fix (if it is possible to resolve). I’m thinking it would be best to give them a break for a few days, then hold something in neutral territory again.

What kind of signs should I be looking for when it comes to degus going into heat? I have noticed there are times where they seem more active, vocal and excitable than usual.

[teemu]

The main things to watch out for when monitoring meetings is signs of things actually turning violent. If they start trying to actually bite, or try to go into FBOD (grabbing each other and trying to bite and claw the other degu, literally becoming a "furball of death"), then of course it should be called off immediately - and in the case of an FBOD you will need to separate them immediately, so do keep a glove and possibly a spray bottle nearby. The usual thinking is that any non-damaging roughhousing is generally just a part of their dominance struggling, and should be allowed to happen. So basically as long as everyone is doing it for the purpose of sorting things out, rather than actually trying to harm others. All the things you describe are, in and of themselves, part of these dominance struggles.

Of course, the advanced age and tolerance of the individuals should be considered. I have a degu in the exact same situation as yours, being old and unwilling to submit to younger and stronger ones, even if it literally runs him to the ground. I think in these situations, you will have to judge when it looks like Alice is simply getting too tired to continue. You will have to go with your observations, as it's totally up to the individuals as to when this occurs. For my Pulla, it starts to be around the time he just starts trying to escape and becomes totally besieged and can't muster any active resistance any more.

(This is of course tricky, because dominance is also established by someone simply proving themselves to be tougher, stronger, fiercer than the others, and more willing to go on when they don't want to any more. But if it's not being productive at all, and the older degu just looks like they're actually just hanging on for dear life and simply not agreeing to surrender, it could just end up being harmful when the victimized one comes to resent the whole thing.)

I agree with your assessment that it does not sound like things will be sorted out presently. Now that the idea of dominance has gotten into the heads of the girls, they won't be willing to just let it go very easily, especially when they've now realized that Alice really can't physically prevent them from taking over. You might also want to make precautions for the girls deciding to sort out which one of them is the top degu, especially since Alice will not be there as the obvious weakest link, so to speak. It may go more smoothly with them, or it may not.

As to signs of heat, it's indeed generally the time when female degus seem to be especially loud, hyper and moody. You may even notice their body actually feeling warmer than usual. Some girls even scream and complain out loud for seemingly no reason. If they seem to be like this, it's probably best to wait some days until they've calmed down, because the hormones are really running at that point. A heat cycle is about 20 days, give or take, so it does not occur the same time each month.

[moletteuk]

My degus in heat would be more active than usual, and generally seem a bit agitated, sniffing bums and wiggling her own bum/tail, and eating less.

I think your plan to wait a few days and try again in the neutral area sounds sensible.

[savvy]

I agree with moletteuk

There's always a lot more tension when one of my girls are on heat. Even to the point of dragging a cage mate by her tail.

[bouncy]

Ditto Molette.

Just remember, you do have to put up with a certain amount of mounting and boxing between them before they can finalise the hierarchy. Don't be tempted to stop them unless you spot violence.

I'm sure they'll resolve things soon, but we're here for you in the meantime.