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Post by teemu on Jul 11, 2023 14:59:15 GMT
We just came home from the vet visit. A bit awkwardly, there was again basically nothing going on with him. His back was fine and there were no signs of damage or any obvious malformations. They did say that if it's for example in the hip (which might explain his strange posture since it's not due to the back), it would be quite hard to detect until it is very pronounced, so there could be something there.
(I also realized that I've been estimating his mobility *after* he had those tumbles and the limp, which may not be a very good indication of whether or not his condition has worsened...)
There was also nothing obviously wrong with his breathing or other vitals. I showed them a video of his usual breathing, and they said it was actually more like rapid breathing, instead of labored breathing (i.e. it's just quick, not deep and difficult). They did note that that might indicate some sort of chronic pain, so we are trying out pain medication for a while to see if it changes his behavior. I suggested that the pain might be due to how he had those difficult issues with his castration, and the tumor after that, and how it might have left scarring or tightness in his abdominal area (since I've often seen him overgrooming his belly and looking quite miserable about it). They agreed that it could very well be, though sadly there is no real way to fix that. We will see what the medication does, if anything, and I suppose then we'll decide if he needs a more permanent prescription.
There was also nothing wrong with the tissue in his neck, as far as they could find. They did note, in the X-ray that was taken, that his dental roots looked somewhat abnormal. It was agreed that we will see to that during the next month (as it does not seem to affect his eating yet, it does not seem acute to the point of needing immediate action right now), which will also give some time to assess how well the painkillers work for him.
So, nothing is too badly off right now, we'll have to see how things develop.
Also exciting news! Just by chance, I visited our local pet shop today and had a discussion with the person there who's breeding degus, and mentioned that I have a lone boy who I've been trying to find company for. They told me that there is a younger lone boy that they have, and would be willing to test out whether he could be homed here. It was agreed that if things seem to not work out at all, they are willing to take him back and look into other possibilities (there was talk of a female who's just had her last pups and won't be having more, who could potentially use a home for example). I had put the matter off for a bit since I was unsure whether Pulla was in a condition where it made any sense to look for new cagemates for him, but since his overall condition seems to be rather normal, I'm very excited about the prospect now. I guess we'll soon see what happens with that.
(The boy they mentioned is about 10 months old and otherwise sounded like a very normal, but lonely individual. The loneliness may not be a bad thing in this case, since it means they both desire companionship as well.)
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 11, 2023 17:36:27 GMT
Great idea to take the video given that Pulla is just like my mother in law and always fine when the doctor asks lol! I think it's reassuring that they didn't find too much wrong, although probably a little frustrating they couldn't tell you more. I've seen pain causing rapid/heavy breathing so I can confirm that is a thing. I hope the painkillers go well and also that the stars align for a possible introduction
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Post by teemu on Jul 11, 2023 21:12:40 GMT
The boy will be coming on Saturday, so we'll see how it goes pretty soon. It will also be intresting to see if he seems notably different from the degus I've had so far, since he's not related at all to the Swedish degus I've gotten so far. I talked with his owner a bit in the store (the breeder), and she said that there are sometimes clear differences in these things, even personality-wise. And apparently the degus here *are* actually quite small, like I've thought before, since she mentioned that in Germany, for example, they are notably bigger.
I am in any case relieved that there's nothing too bad going on with Pulla. I was really afraid that something was going to be seriously off. I think that it's been a bit of me paying a lot of attention to him, and a bit of him being alone and wanting attention/comfort so he shows his problems quite clearly and looks quite miserable sometimes. If he's got some sort of chronic pain and nobody to comfort him in the cage, it's no wonder he sometimes looks pretty abject...
He was again totally mortified about the vet visit, and when we came home he was absolutely frozen for a good ten seconds, as if not sure if he really was back in his cage, and then he ran away screaming to hide for a couple of hours. He's back to normal now and sitting on my lap like the usual. They did not put him under, since they managed to get the X-rays without (I have no idea how they managed that!), so I haven't had to keep an eye on his recovery. Recovering from anesthesia is always quite hard on him.
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Post by teemu on Jul 27, 2023 6:03:53 GMT
To update, the painkillers did not really seem to affect his breathing, and I have not really noticed any changes in his demeanor during this time either. He will be having a dental next Monday, in any case. I'm hoping that the abnormalities they saw in his dental roots in the X-rays are not indicative of a progressive issue. Sadly, they could not say since they did not have previous X-rays that show his head and jaw. Of course, I know that it more than likely does, these issues being what they are in degus. But there's nothing to it other than taking care of his teeth as well as possible and waiting to see what happens.
His last dental was about a year ago, and he's usually not had any major dental issues when he's been checked, but I think this situation does mean that he should be checked more often in the future. To people with experience with root issues, how often do you generally do dental checks?
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Post by teemu on Jul 31, 2023 12:27:21 GMT
Pulla had his dental today, and there was nothing serious at all going on in his mouth. Some minor spurring that they removed, but it was very minor. In general, Pulla's teeth have always been in a very good condition when they have been checked. I suppose it is slightly comforting to know that the root growth that's started to appear is not due to me neglecting his dental health. Although that means that there is also potentially not much that I can do to help prevent it from progressing.
In any case, Pulla has essentially received a completely clear bill of health again, and the sedation went without any issues. He's still quite groggy but that is normal, it always takes him the whole evening to work it off.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 2, 2023 15:17:32 GMT
I'm so pleased this went well, and very reassuring that he didn't need much work. I hope he recovered well and wasn't too shaken up this time.
Did you decide if it's worth carrying on with the painkillers?
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Post by teemu on Aug 5, 2023 0:56:03 GMT
I'm so pleased this went well, and very reassuring that he didn't need much work. I hope he recovered well and wasn't too shaken up this time. Did you decide if it's worth carrying on with the painkillers?
Sorry, I had totally missed your question! He is not on painkillers for now (other than the ones he got for the dental, which he got the next day as well). It seemed to me that they did not really affect the issue, and I did not notice a change in his demeanor. With that, I decided that since it's quite potent stuff, it would be for the best if I don't keep it up "just in case."
Pulla recovered from the whole situation very well and was totally normal by the next day. It's funny, but the nurse there actually said that Pulla is actually very well-behaved when he's being handled. She's very familiar with him by now since he's been there probably closer to 10 times. She said that he's totally quiet and doesn't struggle, to the point where he'll allow himself to be weighed and generally handled without any fuss or gloves. I guess he is used to the place, but he always seems so absolutely mortified when he realizes what's happening. Maybe it's the trip he's mostly afraid of, and not so much the destination.
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Post by teemu on Aug 11, 2023 18:43:17 GMT
I had Pulla out in the kitchen today, and as he was eating some peanut, I figured it was a good opportunity to get a few pictures of his back issues that I've mentioned earlier. His posture is absolutely abnormal, and the way he curves his back is really obvious when he's eating. He is not bunching up or pulling back in these pictures, he's eating in what is, to him, a relaxed normal pose. I really don't think I've seen other degus be in a posture like this. His back does more than a 180 degree bend, and he can't actually support his upper body so he puts his elbows down to the floor to eat. Sometimes he even pushes out his hind legs and sits between them. Has anyone else seen something like this? images2.imgbox.com/99/4e/LM8iTCYZ_o.jpgimages2.imgbox.com/bb/c2/G7Jwgkju_o.jpgimages2.imgbox.com/aa/72/IKPUrBoi_o.jpgNow, I'll reiterate that despite this, he seems to get by without undue distress in normal, calm circumstances. He has a three-level cage and moves happily up and down ramps and stairs, runs in his wheel and does not seem to actually limit his basic movements. His walk is extremely flat-footed and waddling, but I think it mostly makes things slow and cumbersome to him, not actually pained. He would probably not go around the cage like this and run in his wheel if it felt really bad. After all, he has access to food and water on the lowest level, and his nest is there, so surely he'd just stay there if he felt like trying to move was really painful?
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Post by teemu on Aug 11, 2023 18:49:45 GMT
I also took some video of how he walks. Unless he's really spooked, he never moves his feet more than this. If he wants to go faster he shuffles faster. There is also a really noticeable sharp bend in his back above his back feet, presumably around his pelvic area. I'm constantly fretting over whether this is just unmanageable, but so far I genuinely think he is not suffering greatly for it. He is able to lie flat on my palm, so it's not like his spine is stuck in the position, at least. youtube.com/shorts/zu2Z_dYyAkQ?feature=shareyoutube.com/shorts/4k0PuO-RCu0?feature=share
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Post by hpdegus on Aug 12, 2023 0:35:59 GMT
I haven't seen posture like that in any of my degus. The closest is my Tom, who also has a curved spine. He almost seems the opposite though, since it's like he keeps his legs extended with his butt in the air as he waddles. He doesn't use his front paws to eat either, needs to have them pressed to the ground to keep stable.
I'm glad he's getting around alright and seems happy! I was just reading your other thread, I hope everything goes well with the new girl.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 12, 2023 11:30:05 GMT
When Alice got old and frail she would sit further back on her bum, sometimes with her back feet off the ground even.
There's definitely something not right, but I think impossible to say exactly (or even inexactly) what. I wonder if it could even date back to his internal issues after his surgery, maybe scar tissue or something. Did the vet do a full body xray in July?
Ultimately it just comes back to quality of life, and it doesn't sound like his physical issues are close to getting on top of Pulla, so I don't think there is much to be done.
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Post by teemu on Aug 12, 2023 13:10:53 GMT
When Alice got old and frail she would sit further back on her bum, sometimes with her back feet off the ground even. There's definitely something not right, but I think impossible to say exactly (or even inexactly) what. I wonder if it could even date back to his internal issues after his surgery, maybe scar tissue or something. Did the vet do a full body xray in July? Ultimately it just comes back to quality of life, and it doesn't sound like his physical issues are close to getting on top of Pulla, so I don't think there is much to be done.
I think they only X-rayed him from a side profile, and possibly above, since they were inspecting his spine (and managed to get his jaw in it as well). They'd likely have to specifically inspect his abdominal region to find anything there.
I do think that he started having some issues early on, but I'm not sure whether they were before or after the surgery. I do remember that he was always more clumsy than his brother and would tire really badly when they had fights, but of course he was still much more agile than now and could jump and climb. There definitely were some issues quite soon after the surgery, since I joined here in the aftermath to ask if people had any input on his complications, and I do remember bringing it up quite early on after those cleared that he was weirdly "flat-footed" as I put it. So it's hard to say when those started, but it's entirely possible it was afterwards.
I do know that kyphosis (this type of back curvature, as opposed to lordosis which is the opposite, as hpdegus describes on Tom) in livestock animals is associated with a pain response. I have noted before that I suspect his belly does bother him, so it's a good observation that it could definitely be from that. They did inspect his spine and found nothing wrong with it, structurally, so that likely means that it's a posture, not just that his spine is fundamentally twisted. Of course, if he has kept it up for years, it definitely will have affected things a lot. Thank you, that's a very good point!
(this might also explain why he is very careful when getting up from my lap, really stretching out and only slowly gathering his feet under him.)
I do think I've been very careful to estimate his wellbeing. I think it could be said that this whole thing is not made worse by his daily activities (pain-wise), and at most limits the more extreme ones. And I don't think he is acutely suffering, at the very least. Most of the time he's energetic for his age, maintains activity and does not seem to be controlled by any pain that he might have. I'm often a bit worried that my judgements might be biased, but I also tend to keep an eye out on him during like 90% of my waking time at the moment (working from computer and his cage is right next to me, after all), so I've had a lot of time to observe. It's likely that at some point this will become untenable, but it doesn't seem like it, yet.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 12, 2023 19:00:18 GMT
I'm glad it was a useful comment. I think the reason it sprang to mind is because his flanks also seem to be affected and he doesn't look quite symmetrical, which made me think of constraint within the body.
I'm not concerned about his current quality of life and certainly agree you are vigilant about it. If you don't mind me saying, I think your close understanding with him and your concern for his mental wellbeing might be making you worry more about him physically too, when there's not really anything more you can do for him physically.
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Post by teemu on Aug 12, 2023 19:15:21 GMT
I'm glad it was a useful comment. I think the reason it sprang to mind is because his flanks also seem to be affected and he doesn't look quite symmetrical, which made me think of constraint within the body. I'm not concerned about his current quality of life and certainly agree you are vigilant about it. If you don't mind me saying, I think your close understanding with him and your concern for his mental wellbeing might be making you worry more about him physically too, when there's not really anything more you can do for him physically.
That is definitely something I am familiar with. I know that ultimately I can't really do anything about it at this point, so life will simply go as it will. But of course it's so easy to fuss and worry over these things. But I agree with you. We will simply take things as they come. I can at least be quite sure that when things take a turn, I will be able to tell.
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Post by teemu on Sept 1, 2023 12:31:27 GMT
I think Pulla has some more chronic issues with his back leg. Either the injury he had earlier has become long-term, or that was just a symptom of some other issue. I often see him keeping it off the ground and sometimes failing to scratch himself with it. Oddly enough none of this still seems top affect his mobility notably, and I have not noticed any decrease in how much he moves around the cage. It doesn't seem painful either, and he doesn't really care if I touch it. He's actually running in the wheel right now, so I can't imagine it's actually bothering him much.
I've lately been thinking a lot about his condition and age. I was starting to think at one point that he's really wearing down now, but it seems that a good part of that might just be being a bit morose due to loneliness. Now that he's meeting Pipari daily, he's a lot more energetic and seems a lot less old. It's fairly notable that he has issues moving around, especially compared to her (I'm just a bit worried about Pipari getting in the wheel with him and really booking it...), but at the same time right now he really does not look all that aged or ailing.
One issue with his new vigor is that he often now seems to forget that he's very much not a climber or a jumper any more. He's had some tumbles and falls (nothing serious, but of course I really don't want him taking any with his back already being an issue), and I'm a bit stumped as to how I could make sure he won't have any unfortunate falls. It's not entirely realistic to try and set the cage up in a way that would totally eliminate all edges and falls, especially since Pipari is now also in the cage and needs a lot of climbing space. Especially at the moment, when I have to split the cage up, there is a lot of elevation. I've thought about something like safety netting, like for example setting hammocks in places with drops, but it doesn't look entirely feasible...
Another thing that has started to slightly worry me is his tail. There is no damage yet, but his spine is curved enough (or his pelvis bends down far enough, however it actually is) that his tail juts towards the floor, and has to bend quite a bit at the base. I've been looking at it and thinking that sooner or later there's going to be some problems due to him rubbing it raw while moving, or possibly due to it preventing him from actually sitting down or something like that. As is, when he's lying and and sleeping or something like that, his tail doesn't actually come out directly behind him, but from under him and points in whatever direction. It can't be comfortable...
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