Chronic lung issues with Pulla (and some other stuff)

[teemu]

Hey all,

Lately I've been observing that after Pulla had his really severe and sudden respiratory infection (during the winter; I was absolutely sure he would die on the spot...), he has not been the same. His breathing is heavier and his sides rise and fall observably all the time as he breathes. He seems to get out of breath even quicker than before. I think that the illness did some lasting damage to his respiratory system. I do not think there is an infection or anything going on, his breathing sounds are clear (it's just labored) and it's more of a chronic thing now. So it's not something that a vet would be able to resolve.

I was wondering if anyone would have ideas as to how I could ease his breathing. I have been taking more care to make sure that his cage is clear of dust and all, but other than that, I'm not sure what I could do to help.

After that episode, he has also gotten thinner. His weight is not dropping, but he has obviously lost weight, and his ribs and spine can be felt clearly when I stroke him. They're not poking out, but I can feel them clearly, and his weight is now about 30-40 grams less than normal (He's now only 210g, give or take, while he has been 240-250g normally). I do not think it is teeth issues, as he does not show any signs of that and eats eagerly when given food, and he had his teeth checked out just before the whole respiratory episode. So it seems much more likely that the severe illness has some lingering effects.

I'm not experienced with treating a degu with anorexic symptoms, so I'm unsure what would be a good semi-permanent supportive feed. The CC I have and can obtain has sugars in it, so I would rather not give it outside acute situations. I can give nuts and seeds, but I'm not sure if that's good for him as a constant staple diet.

(I also do not think that he is suffering from diabetes, which can cause loss of weight. He shows no symptoms of that, either in urination or drinking, and his eyes are clear of any cataracts. All this started to occur after that whole situation in February.)

It seems like he has aged many years after the last winter. I'm really sorry that it has been so hard on him...

[savvy]

This may be out in left field, but could he possibly have a heart condition? This would explain the laboured breathing, and the exhaustion after exercise.

As you say CC is loaded with sugar, but Science Selective Recovery and Science Selective Recovery Plus are free both from added sugars. Are they available where you are?

I think it may be an idea to have a vet listen to his heart, if only to rule it out.

[teemu]

That is a good question. It could be that there is something wrong with his heart. It might be that for example the respiratory issue could have caused pneumonia, which could have also affected his cardiac muscles. It would be good to have the vet take a listen - especially if it can be done without sedation (I don't think he is in great health for that right now).

I have also noted (I think two weeks ago) that there is a small amount of weird mass in his throat area (not attached to his throat tightly, but just in that area in the front). I've basically just let things be with that, since I figured that it would not be possible to operate something like that in such an area on any case, if it turns out to be something bad (and it feels quite similar to the fatty tissue on Pipari). But it could be that they could at least take a look at that as well if he's going anyway.

Thank you for the suggestion. I was not actually aware of those feeds, and it seems like they are sold in several Finnish stores online. So I'll get some of that and see if it helps him with the weight.

I did notice that he's been a bit less vital over this year, but I guess at first I chalked it up to him being quite depressed about Posso passing away. But it is pretty clear that there is something else going on as well. He is nowadays also very, very touch-starved and constantly begs to be taken up and held. I thought that that was probably also due to him being lonely again, but it could be that he is in discomfort and wants to be comforted...

Though, of course it's all just conjecture for now. Ruling out possibilities will be good. I do hope that he still has time left, because I don't feel like he has given up on life at all. He enjoys getting out of the cage and he is active in his cage as well (even if he is not agile and tires quickly after exertion). It just sucks that he doesn't seem to ever catch a break with all this.

[moletteuk]

I'm sorry I don't really have any ideas for you, Teemu, keeping the dust down and airborne chemicals (cleaning sprays, air fresheners, candles etc) are about it.

I think you are right that it is possible that a severe chest infection that could be pneumonia can certainly leave lasting damage, I think there is still a chance of some slow recovery from this type of damage. I wonder if the extra effort to breath could be responsible for the weight loss, plus not feeling well reduces appetite, plus his grief will have affected appetite.

Anything that isn't pellets or forage will throw the nutrition out, I think the Recovery products are a good shout if they are sugar free, I didn't know that, or had forgotton. Depending on what's available you may be able to switch brands of pellets to encourage a bit more interest. It's not always liked or possible, but I do like to recommend fresh forage for elderly degus or those with health issues, even just a few blades of fresh grass and the odd dandelion can trigger something positive in them, even if they have shown no interest previously.

[hpdegus]

My first thought was heart issues, but I've had several degus with heart conditions, so it's the first thing I tend to think of.

My current heart goo was diagnosed via an unsedated x-ray. They've done that 2-3 times over the past 19 months. He's been on pimobendan for that whole time.

Hopefully, your vet would be able to take an x-ray without sedation. It could be very informative.

I don't have any other suggestions on the recovery food, I might have to look for the brand Savvy recommended myself!

[teemu]

Thank you for telling about that, hpdegus. I was feeling quite bad about it since I thought there wouldn't be much that could be done. The fact that medication exists does mean that if it is his heart, there could be.

His crooked back really is not helping any of it. I did some restructuring on his cage today to make sure that he does not need to jump to get anywhere. He has enjoyed his swing, but he has taken a couple of tumbles so I figured it would be for the best to change things up. It seems like he really has to concentrate and gather himself if he needs to hop anywhere, even just on my shoulder if I come sit next to the cage and offer it. He moves quite well on level terrain and is active though (even if anything more strenuous seems really tiring), so I think this at least is more of a mobility issue than anything else. He still likes exploring outside the cage when allowed to, as well.

It looks like the vet he's been at is taking vacation just around now, so I'll have to wait a bit with his appointment.

[hpdegus]

I hope that isn't the issue, but I wouldn't want anyone else to be shocked like I was when my first degu was diagnosed. There are a few different meds which I'm sure vary by country and vet preference. You can look up heart enlargement/failure in guinea pigs--there seems to be much more experience and research on gps.

I'm glad he's doing well on level ground! Tom has spondylosis (some spinal curvature) and the gabapentin does seem to be helping him.

[teemu]

I've thought about his back and about the spondylosis after it was mentioned earlier, but at least for now it does not seem like he has that. His back is not painful, as far as I can tell, and I haven't really seen him avoiding any movements. He might be clumsy and it might be hard, but he still wants to climb the stuff we have for them in the kitchen, and when he gets excited he hustles around really fast, even if he has to go up or down stairs in the cage. It also seems like he enjoys me stroking his back, possibly because he can't really reach it himself and there's nobody to groom him any more.

The new food arrived today, and to my relief, Pulla really likes it. I'm giving him small amounts at first so his belly can get used to it, but I'm hoping this will put some weight back on him.

[teemu]

I've been watching him a bit closer, and it looks like he's having some problems with his back legs, at least the left one. I don't know if it's because he took a tumble some days ago, or because of his back causing some issues, but he doesn't seem to have much strength there. He can walk just fine and climb up and down the ramps in his cage, and I've seen him even jump (totally without need, he can go anywhere he wants without needing to) about a palm width to reach another platform, but he's constantly shifting his left back foot when he's still and seems to be careful about putting too much weight on it. It's hard to say if it's affecting his walking, since he waddles in rather small steps anyway. He also can't seem to manage to stand on his back legs right now. He simply could not lift himself up to get a peanut when I tried. When he settles down to eat, he really has to wedge himself into position and basically just lies on top of his back legs...

I carefully inspected the leg, and it does not seem painful or broken in any way. He's not dragging it and it moves (I saw him scratching his side and belly with it, even though it was a bit awkward), has some resistance if I push against it and so on. I'll keep watching it over the weekend. If it's just a painful knock, it will probably get better in a couple of days. If not, it might be some more chronic issue...

He is, in any case, active and moving around the cage like normal.

[hpdegus]

I hope it's just lingering soreness! I'm sure your vet can check for signs of something chronic (arthritis maybe?) when you next take him in.

Hows he doing today?

[teemu]

He's been doing a lot better with that, so I think it was just some tenderness from the earlier, thankfully!

No real changes otherwise either. The days have been hot so nobody is feeling exactly energetic, but the AC does help a bit with that.

[teemu]

Today he's had some moments of awkwardness with his foot again, but I am not sure at all what's going on with that. He's moving around all active, but then suddenly limping for a bit, and then fine again. It's really weird. Maybe it's him just stressing the sore foot too much so that it starts smarting again?

I inspected him again carefully, and it does not seem like there is any acute pain with just touching or moving the foot. It certainly works. Just, sometimes he seems to be careful with it, and limping, like he does not want to move it as much. But then he just starts jumping, climbing and running in the wheel.

Very strange...

[teemu]

Well, I arranged the cage so that he literally cannot jump around any more, and it seems to have helped. Have not seen him limping badly any more. He is still a bit awkward when trying to eat and so on, but hopefully this will help him recover.

[moletteuk]

Good thinking.

Wondering about the variability, is there a pattern to when it seems worse? could it just be worse in the evening after he's been actuve in the day, or does it stiffen up after he's been resting for a while?

[teemu]

The only time I was directly observing it was when he did a small hop, and immediately started limping after that, pretty badly. He seemed kind of scared by it and then had real trouble with eating the piece of walnut I had given him (since he couldn't find a good position to get his hands off the ground). After I removed all the opportunities for jumping from his cage, he has not had those acute situations where he's keeping the foot off the ground. Just climbing up or down surfaces normally does not seem to aggravate it, and I've not confiscated his wheel since it hasn't gotten bad again after that.

There were two times he took a tumble during the last week (or the weekend before, I don't remember exactly), once from being spooked by something and jumping off a platform in panic, and once when he attempted to jump, didn't make it and fell on his bum. I started changing things in his cage after that, since it really did look pretty rough one time. But hopefully it's just soreness from that.

Other than that, he's been lively. He's slept a bit more than before, and sometimes sleeps in weird places, but it is also really hot right now, so I think it's probably just that. I wouldn't want to sleep buried in a big heap of nesting materials either, in this weather...

[teemu]

Today as a cooler day, since it's been cloudy and there's been some rain as well. Pulla has been a lot more energetic today. I was not sure if it was his foot that was bothering, or something else, but he seemed to be a bit under the weather in that general, hard to pin down way this week. But today he's been back to his old self and there's been no issues at all, so I think it really must have been the heat. That's a relief, and luckily the next week is going to be somewhat rainy and less hot.

We do have an AC unit, which helps with the worst of the heat, but it's not very powerful and I also don't want to aim it directly at the degus since I don't think cold draft directly into their cages would be good, so it essentially just makes things tolerable instead of pleasant. I'll have to see if I can get a cool pad or something like that for him. The girls have all been normal, but I guess he's older and has health problems, so it's understandable he does not take the heat in stride any more.

[moletteuk]

Good to hear he is doing a lot better now it's a bit cooler

[teemu]

As an addendum to this, he has had no acute leg issues after I adjusted his cage. I have now concluded, though, that his mobility has become worse in a rather short time span.

During his kitchen playtime, he is no longer able to jump or even climb up the cat scratch post we have set up for them a climbing surface (the rough surface makes it really good for all of that). He tried, but he only managed a really pitiful hop and then did not attempt it again. I've also had to change his sand bath into a low plastic container, since he has had real troubles making it over the edge into the deeper hamster carry cage we used for this earlier. I'm not sure about the exact timeline, but I want to say that this has changed drastically in the last three months, at most. He doesn't want to go to the kitchen too often any more, so his outings are sparse and I don't remember how long ago exactly it was that I started noticing this.

His normal mobility in the cage has not really been affected, and he moves quickly when he wants to. It doesn't look like this is affecting his normal life quality notably yet. But he just can't manage the same kind of push with his hind legs as before. I'm confident that the issue is with his bag, since his legs seem to move just fine. I've also noticed that he very often (basically always when I put him down or when he has to get moving otherwise) has to do this long stretch (the kind you might see when a degu is waking up and has to get moving) and take a bit of time before he gathers his back legs under him and gets moving. It looks a lot like his back feels quite stiff, quite often.

I'll finally be able to get him that vet appointment soon. I'm worried about whether or not he's going to have to be sedated for any examinations they do, since there are multiple things and all. I hope that if it comes to that, I'm just being overly worried. I often nowadays feel really protective about him and quite paranoid about him hurting himself or getting hurt otherwise. Probably because of all those illnesses and the operations he's had to have.

[teemu]

Pulla has an appointment for next the next Tuesday. I expressed concern about anesthesia, and they assured me that they will first observe his lungs and heart, and if they seem irregular, they won't be putting him under anything but a light sedation (a bit of the gas to make him easier to handle, but no actual anesthesia). They did say that good X-rays of his back will necessitate anesthesia, and it will make inspecting the other issues easier as well, but we'll see what can be done after he's assessed.

[moletteuk]

It sounds like the vet fully understands the situation and that they will minimise the risk. I think it's definitey worth trying to get some investigations done. I hope it goes well.