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Post by teemu on Apr 11, 2023 21:33:52 GMT
It looks like Limppu has been putting on a *lot* of weight, and is now one of my heavier degus despite being really small for most of her life. She has become increasingly greedy and is eating almost obsessively now, and it's starting to show in her body. So I'm thinking that I'll need to do the same to her as for Pipari, and regulate her access to pellets. However, I'm not sure how I could go about this when I have Suti in the same cage, and she is quite slim and certainly does not need any pellet regulation. I'm hoping that someone might have ideas how to do this.
(She is starting to be actually quite fat, in the same way that Pipari started to balloon out. I can feel a lot of fat in her thigh area, and her body is becoming really rotund.)
Limppu's weird hormonal issues (delayed puberty and all) are probably what's causing her to be like this. She has lately become very dominating and has started to actively posture up on Suti way more. She has also become absolutely ferocious when it comes to food, and screams incredibly loudly if she feels that I am not fast enough with treats when it's time. She seriously sounds like a piglet! Yesterday, when I was in the kitchen with them, she managed to find a plastic die that had dropped on the ground and snatched it. When I took it from her, she was absolutely furious and actually shouted at me, kept running after me and DEMANDING that I give it back to her. So her body has grown a lot, and her personality has gotten even bigger...
On that note, Suti seems to be having issues with her teeth right now, and is going to the vet on Friday to get that sorted (she can eat, but it's obviously not easy for her). I have been giving her a lot of seeds and nuts and some CC outside the cage. And Limppu absolutely knows it. I can always see her from the corner of my eye, just looming there. She even starts cussing me out if the seed box makes any noises...
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Post by deguconvert on Apr 12, 2023 18:46:47 GMT
I wonder if Limppu should be checked for diabetes? Have you observed her drinking copious amounts of water?
I'm rather amused by her growing a big personality, and forming an instant bond with the dice. LOL! Our three boys were HUGE treasure hunters and hoarders!! They would find something and BAM no human shall ever again touch it. Bobby pins, necklaces, polished stones, rubber bands, lego pieces, the queen sized quilt on my daughters bed ... all were taken, except for the quilt😂😂😂, to their hoard and furiously guarded. We would have to check it out every once in a while when something precious had gone missing. Like car keys!
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Post by teemu on Apr 12, 2023 20:01:08 GMT
I have not checked her, but she has not really shown any signs like increased drinking or urinating. She just eats obsessively. She has always been very food-motivated, but I think her hormonal balance has now shifted so that it's catching up to her, fast. Hopefully, if I can get her to stop ballooning up, at least the health hazards can be minimized.
I'm actually a bit worried about her developments, since her moodiness has steadily been increasing over time. It could cause some issues in the future, since Suti is such a big personality also, and has often had really big mood swings of her own. So far it has usually been fine since Limppu is just a total potato and has not even comprehended her posturing, but now I've started to see her pushing back, and that might mean that at some point there will be clashing...
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Post by moletteuk on Apr 13, 2023 11:12:25 GMT
I think this could well be hormonal.
How long does Suti take to eat her pellets, or is she more of a grazer? is it feasible to separate them while they eat their pellets? Can you screen off Suti while you are giving her supplementary feed - eliminating the jealousy element might help?
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Post by teemu on Apr 13, 2023 14:51:25 GMT
Suti is a really picky eater and is also really hyper outside the cage, so I don't think I'll have any luck with getting her to eat boring plain pellets outside the cage. And it's certainly not good for her in the long run if she just gets nuts and seeds in large amounts. But it does seem that the only way to ensure that more food goes into her instead of Limppu is to do supplementary feeding and thus reduce free access to the feed they get.
I wonder if I should start making some sort of a more tasty mixed feed (like how some people make their own degu mixes) for the purposes of feeding Suti while outside the cage? I think that might be more enticing to her and she might actually eat something like that, and then I could reduce the amount of pellets they get inside the cage since Limppu will clean up most of those anyway.
(They have free access to hay and get dried forage daily, and I do not intend to limit anyone's access to this. It's mainly just the fact that the pellet bowl gets emptied quite often, and it seems like every other time I look at the cage I see Limppu sitting somewhere with a pellet clutched in each hand, munching away...)
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Post by moletteuk on Apr 13, 2023 18:20:44 GMT
You could try that. Bear in mind to consider adding some vitamin d if Suti isn't eating that many pellets, if you aren't already.
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Post by teemu on Apr 14, 2023 12:16:05 GMT
Suti visited the dentist today. She had a single incredibly overgrown molar that was actually trying to poke out of her mouth. It was not even spurred or anything, it had just grown totally out of proportions. She had no other dental issues and the molar was trimmer uneventfully.
Continuing with the topic of Limppu's general weirdness, her reactions to Suti's return have me somewhat worried. She had obviously been really spooked when Suti vanished and was huddled in a corner of the cage all alert when I returned. But when she spotted Suti, her reactions were at first really, really incoherent. She first almost jumped her and screamed, then started surrounding her, posturing up and crying about it, trying to get both on top of Suti and under her. It was as if she was really unsure of whether it was her sister or not, and was struggling with whether to attack her or not. It took her a good half an hour to calm down at all, and she kept following Suti around afterwards, pushing her and generally behaving in weird ways.
It's natural for a degu to be alerted and confused by something like this, and I can understand being weirded out by your sister having a strange smell on her, but Limppu's reaction was pretty difficult. As mentioned, I think she is having increasingly hard hormonal issues, or possibly some sort of developmental challenges (which I've mentioned earlier), and just doesn't really have a good grasp on the situation.
She also peed on Suti like crazy, seemingly to attempt to calm herself down by asserting dominance or something like that, and I'm a bit worried how Suti is going to take it after she sobers up properly (she's still really tired and out of it). I'm not sure if there is anything I can do to mitigate the situation, but I am worried about whether or not Limppu will have more severe behavior problems in the future...
(Like I've said, I think there is something wrong with some of these degus. Half of all my degus have had issues and challenges, and they all come from the same area of breeders, or possibly even the same breeder(s). I'm really worried I'm doing something wrong with them, but I genuinely also think that the way they are shipped here long distance and the way they are often put together with degus outside their own siblings during the transit might seriously mess some of the pups up. Or maybe there's something like inbreeding causing developmental issues. I really don't know...)
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Post by hpdegus on Apr 14, 2023 16:15:41 GMT
I'm glad Suti's dental procedure went well!
Huh, that does seem pretty weird. I always take the full group (patient + his brothers) either me to the vet. Could you do that? I know there's the additional stress of going to the vet, but then you hopefully wouldn't have nearly as dramatic a reunification.
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Post by teemu on Apr 14, 2023 16:40:41 GMT
My experience is that all my degus are chronically afraid of having to be in a carry cage, and start to fight if left in there together for any amount of time together. Basically they start to panic and push each other and that panic then turns into fight-or-flight...
Way back, we had Pulla and his brother Munkki together in a carrier when Munkki was going to the vet, since I figured exactly that it would help keep them calm. They actually started to fight so bad that we had to put Pulla in a random box that was in the car! And similarly, when I brought in the girls from the pet store back when I bought them, they spent maybe fifteen minutes in a box together and during that time were screaming at each other bloody murder. Especially since Limppu basically reacts to all unexpected situations by screaming and lunging at something, I think it would be a very bad idea to have her tag along. Some of them just seem so volatile...
Basically, it has always felt that all of the social dynamics between the degus that have come in have been really fragile. My understanding is that this is really not the norm. The only time I've had a cage with multiple degus that seemed to get along perfectly was when Pulla and Posso were introduced and had one year of peaceful, calm and good life together. I'm still broken up over how cruelly it ended...
Fortunately, Limppu's whole freakout this time got resolved soon after I posted. I guess it just took her a good while to register that nothing weird had actually happened and everything was back to normal. Suti is even eating hay now, and things are back to as they were.
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Post by deguconvert on Apr 14, 2023 21:06:11 GMT
I'm so glad that Suti is now relieved of a molar turned tusk! She will be feeling much better once she is recovered.
Limmpu ... well ... she is a bit of a puzzle, isn't she. I would imagine that degu hormones are not a big area of study, so testing to see what is happening would difficult to do. I hope she will settle!
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Post by teemu on Apr 15, 2023 4:04:21 GMT
Yes, Limppu is certainly a whole thing! I'm hoping that since it almost seems like she's now having a puberty that it might actually end at some point. If not, I might consult with the vet about a possibility of spaying, since if it's hormonal there's some hope that it might calm her down. I really hope that I don't need to start considering it, but if she keeps becoming more problematic... It seems like the dental visit offered Suti immediate relief, and she recovered really quickly from the sedation. By the evening she was already completely normal and seems to have even noticed that she can eat better again I'll still be looking into making some sort of a more tasty supplementary feed for Suti so that I can reduce the amount of pellets they have available, but I'll gauge a bit to see how well she takes to eating in the cage - could be that if she eats pellets more readily again that I could get her to eat some without leaving as much in the cage (basically to ensure that Limppu won't have time to eat everything. I suspect that part of why Suti has become so picky about the pellets is that I changed to another type of pellet (specifically intended for degus) after it was pointed out that a guinea pig/chinchilla mix might have contents not suited for them (which turned out to be the case, so it was a very good point!). Some of my degus really like the new pellets, and some only eat them if they must. I could also look into finding other ready made pellets that could be tastier, but my local store does not sell others, so it's a bit awkward.
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Post by moletteuk on Apr 15, 2023 12:44:18 GMT
At least you found out there is a problem with them being reunited after a vet visit without it doing lasting damage, so you can take steps to hopefully lessen the impact next time. Perhaps you could sand bath Suti or scatter soiled bedding on her on her return and perhaps you could do some sort of split cage within the cage to hopefully allow them to calm down a little.
I'm glad the Suti has recovered well.
I think it's worth exploring other pellets, I used to switch them periodically to try to keep them interested.
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Post by bouncy on Apr 18, 2023 10:38:45 GMT
The vet visit behaviour is quite normal. There was the separation anxiety from being sat in the cage corner, the scalding when they came back, and even the weeing. After all, don't us humans always say we don't like the smell of hospitals, let alone some of the other patients around us?
I always find it best to take the entire group to the vet, rather than just one. With the strange environment, it helps when you have your buds around you. My surgery activity encourages it, happy to keep all of them together for even overnight stays. The dislike of the carry case may purely be a temporary reflection of the reduced space (how big is yours?), or even a Laurel and Hardy "look what you've gotten me into".
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Post by teemu on Apr 19, 2023 18:41:48 GMT
Limppu has gotten really dominating suddenly, but amazinglyz Suti is not resisting it. She complains a bit when mounted and might shift, but Limppu is obviously asserting dominance and meeting no real resistance. This is quite a development, since Suti has always been the top degu with a big, loud personality.
Also, after her tooth trimming, Suti has started to eat really heartily now. It's weird since she did not eat much even when she did not have these issues earlier in life. Maybe she realized that hunger sucks and is making up for lost weight?
In any case it looks like things are strangely sorting themselves out, which is of course welcome.
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Post by yasmin on Apr 22, 2023 14:46:39 GMT
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Post by deguconvert on Apr 25, 2023 3:01:18 GMT
Great news, Teemu!
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Post by teemu on Sept 28, 2023 20:55:55 GMT
I've been quiet about this for a good while, but I have been struggling with the issue for all of the summer. Limppu has become incredibly manic about food and it's gotten to the point where she's terrorizing Suti so that she doesn't even dare eat when food is being handed out. She just hides it and then Limppu follows her and eats all of her pellets as well. I started giving them only small portions, thinking that it would maybe entice Suti to eat if they only get it at a certain time (and Limppu really, really does not need free access to pellets...).
I tried to take Suti out of the cage to feed her specifically for a long time, but it was really spotty since she is so amped up and nervous. She'd eat nuts or seeds, but not normal food. So essentially I have been kind of powerless to stop Limppu from just getting fatter if I wanted to allow Suti to have any food at all.
But finally today I managed to come up with a solution that seems absolutely obvious in hindsight. Instead of taking Suti out of the cage so that she can eat, I took Limppu out. I reasoned that Suti only eats in the cage, and Limppu is so greedy that she will probably eat anywhere. And I was right! Suti ate everything I gave her, and I could control exactly how much Limppu got in turn. Going forward, this is probably going to help a *lot*
Limppu really has gotten very, very fat. I feel really bad about it since I really felt powerless to stop it. Suti was so skinny that I had to try to make sure she got at least something. But Limppu probably on average eats like 3/4 of it all, at least. She has become the heaviest of our degus (and she was the smallest at one point!), and has essentially just ballooned out. She looks basically neckless now, and her spine is basically buried in fat. I used to live on the countryside, and her current state brings to mind how they used to absolutely fatten pigs up...
Luckily, she is still young-ish, and is physically active. She can jump, climb and run (it looks absurd when her fat sausage body clears a vertical jump at least twice her own length...), and likes to run in the wheel. I think that if I can get the situation under control like this, she will shrink back up. It worked for Pipari, so it should work for her as well. Although it is worrying that it has even gotten like this, since food is a really, really big point of conflict to them and it's clearly affecting Suti. Both of them basically look ready to fight as soon as they get any treats or good. It will probably be better for everyone's welbeing to make sure they are separated when they eat...
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 29, 2023 13:29:04 GMT
I'm glad you found a solution. It's probably worth making sure Limppu can't see Suti eating in the cage. Hopefully their weights will balance out a bit going forward.
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Post by teemu on Oct 14, 2023 18:14:12 GMT
The arrangement has been working out somewhat, in that taking Limppu out of the cage at least allows Suti some reprieve to eat. However, she never eats all that much. Limppu would happily scarf down every food pellet I give, but suti just eats a few and loses focus. It's really good that she can eat at least that much, but she clearly does not have a great deal of appetite...
I'm not sure what to make of it. She has been health checked and they did her dental some time back, but even after that her eating only improved a bit. And she has no trouble eating nuts, seeds or whatever other treat. So it really does not look like there are any physical issues with her eating, but that she just does care about eating a lot. She eats some, then stashes some, then goes to run in the wheel. Since she is quite thin and lean, it's a bit worrisome. It's not something that qualifies for anorexia probably, she is not sickly thin, but it's still not good.
(I kind of suspect that her hyperactivity, and probably some hormonal imbalances, are a big issue here. She is either frantically running around all day or destroying something, or lying down exhausted. She doesn't have the patience to eat and she uses up a lot of energy, so of course she'd be thin...)
I wonder if it would be for the best to allow her to fatten up by allowing her to have more seeds and nuts? The problem is, I feel, that she might just start eating even less pellets if she can fill up on other stuff. Switching up the pellets did not really help the issue, and she does not like the supplemental recovery feed we have at all (neither of them, and I'd rather not give her CC in any case since it has the cane sugar and all). Or if there would be some other thing that could be used to supplement her diet and would be better for her. She does like dry forage, but I probably can't just stuff her full of that either.
I could maybe try doing the feeding twice a day from now on and seeing if she cares to eat both times.
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 15, 2023 11:07:05 GMT
Did she have her glucose tested? And when was the dental, could she be having further issues if it was a while ago? How light is she? I think trying feeding her twice a day is worth a try. You could try the Supreme Recovery food as a supplement, I think it is sugar free and there is a chance she might prefer it. I would be careful offering extra treats, you could try extra seeds if they are a reasonably high calcium mix, they shouldn't cause a problem. If it's becoming a serious problem then you might want to think about more treats, but potentially trying dried veg and roots (maybe corrected for calcium) (if she can tolerate the carbs) so you could offer a good mix of treats. I would try everything else first. She can have as much forage as she wants, there isn't really a down side to that, you could try some pelleted forage, something like Pre Alpin (only some are degu suitable). If she isn't eating many pellets you might want to supplement vitamin d. Have you tried the Supreme Science pellets, they were the most reliably liked ones with my degus?
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