Delayed puberty?

[teemu]

Something is going on with Limppu. It's strange, but I think it's a positive sign. She has been very small, like I've often recounted, and has also been abnormally chill and has not really showed any signs of being in heat ever. She has, in many ways, been a total enigma, and I've often suspected that she might actually have some sort of hormonal imbalances that have essentially made her skip puberty totally. Now, it seems, things are changing.

Limppu has very suddenly put on 20 grams (she's now up to 200 grams, even) and has started behaving more like the other girls. She's weighed 180g for her whole adult life (excluding one dip at one point), and she has never been over 183. Now she has been at a solid 198-200 for at least two weeks. I've also seen her engaging Suti in behavior that seems a lot like social hierarhy stuff, which she never did in the past. Nothing aggressive, but they seem to be checking each other out and ensuring that they're on friendly terms. Limppu even seems active in this regard! And I'm fairly sure she's had a heat too, being a lot more moody and loud than usual.

I think all this is positive, in that it's obviously good if she puts on a bit more weight, and if she actually is having some sort of a delayed puberty, then that's good as well. It's just very strange that it suddenly started happening. Nothing has really changed. I wonder what could be the cause?

(Sidenote: The girls just turned one year. Posso and Suti three days ago, and Limppu 8 days ago. Time's gone by so quickly!)

[deguconvert]

MOST INTRIGUING!! Keep us posted!

[moletteuk]

Strange, indeed!

[teemu]

I think Limppu is also keeping watch in the cage a lot more. Suti is super active and all, but Limppu has lately been the one observing things and making alarms of something seems amiss. Maybe she is assuming an alpha position?

It's good that she's putting on weight, in any case. She still feels really delicate and small when handled.

She is not the only one growing, either! Pipari is only 6 months old but she's already a solid 220 grams. She was 200 just a couple of weeks ago. She feels muscular and lean in my hands, in that healthy way. Same as how Posso and Suti feel, but she's already almost as big. I think she might well become our largest degu!

[deguconvert]

These are great things!! I am so happy to hear them! You have happy goos!!

[teemu]

An errant neuron just fired in my head and I realised something: Limppu only started acting like this after Pipari arrived. And she has reacted very negatively to the new degu (very territorial, very displeased to see her). This is a really weird idea, and I'm not sure how it could be, but might it be that introducing a new female into the household has somehow activated Limppu, in that sense? Nothing else has changed at all.

Pipari also behaves very territorially, in that sense, and they can certainly at least perceive each other (not in the same room, but they can smell and hear, and even see, each other). Maybe a brand new female that's acting standoffish somehow made her realise that she should get serious about things?

[moletteuk]

I think it's possible.

[deguconvert]

Brought a spark into her life. Whatever it is . . . is it a good thing for Limppu.

[teemu]

The overall shift in dynamics has not been huge, but I think there has actually been a kind of change over the past month in the girls' cage. Limppu is kind of more assertive, and Suti seems to be a bit less so. I've seen Limppu be more vocal and actually push Suti away multiple times, and Suti seems to be fine with it and doesn't fight over any of that. Suti also seems to have calmed down lately. She's less hectic and amped up over everything. It almost seems like Limppu is kind of... managing her somehow. It's a bit strange.

Especially when Suti broke her jaw, Limppu seemed to be constantly sitting by her and keeping watch and comforting her. It honestly even seemed like she tried to protect Suti from me when I would have to catch her for medication.

Kind of feels like Limppu has come to the conclusion that it's up to her to make sure that things keep steady and calm, and she's more assertive and vocal about it if needed. Whereas before she was merely trying to keep her head down and mind her own business.

[moletteuk]

I think it's always so lovely when you see them looking after each other and keeping each other safe. (Makes me so mad when researchers dramatically announce that rodents have empathy, like it's news to anyone who has ever kept rodents). It sounds like Limpu finding her strength has had a good effect on their relationship and dynamic. Maximum kudos to any sentient beings who can respond positively to stress!

[teemu]

As an addendum to the topic after a long time, it really does seem like Limppu had some sort of a delayed puberty. She is now one of the heavier degus, and somehow she actually kept growing in size well after reaching adulthood. When she was a year old, she was still smaller than Suti, just in terms of skeletal size (that is, the actual size of her skeleton, i.e. length and so on). But at this point, she might actually be a bit bigger. She also weighs more, and has developed a robust and strong build.

It's really strange. Normally, it should not be possible for an animal to increase in actual size after reaching adulthood, because when an animal reaches adulthood the growth plates normally close (growth plates are patches of the long bones of the limbs and such that have not yet ossified, but are actually made up of cartilege, so that the bones literally stretch in size as the animal grows, before they are replaced with bone). Limppu, however, has increased in size well into her adult age. She's now 1 year and 8 months, and over the summer and fall she's gained 30 grams of stable weight and like 10-20% body length (she was almost two finger-widths shorter than Suti at the start of the year). That's really notable for an animal that's supposedly through the growing period. So I think that what has happened here is a genuine case of some sort of a hormonal imbalance that prevented Limppu from growing up normally in the regular time frame. Kept her a child, so to speak. That would explain why she behaved so strangely while the others were growing up.

The strangest thing is, though, that normally an animal with delayed puberty stays stunted permanently due to simply "missing their chance" to grow before the growth plates close and ossify. Limppu has somehow caught up with the others well into her adulthood. I think that in human terms, this would be like someone staying really small until they reach an age of 18 to 20, and then steadily growing taller over their 20s. Just really strange.

I think it's good for her, though. She seems a lot more normal, nowadays. She's quite quiet and usually just sits around keeping watch, but she's more assertive and seems to just understand what's happening way more. Also, Suti seems to have calmed down tremendously after Limppu grew up, probably because Limppu is way more likely to tell her off now if she gets too rowdy, and everyone just seems to be way more stable.

[moletteuk]

Interesting!

[deguconvert]

Really interesting.

Another reason why there can be unusual growth is a tumor on the pituitary. Not to say she has a tumor . . . but like you have said, her growth at this age is highly unusual. It's really very intriguing!

[teemu]

Yes, I'd wager that some sort of a hormonal issue (could well be caused by a tumor or the like) is the root cause of this. She certainly has been rather... brain damaged at times. When she was younger, I'd often look at her and wonder if there was literally any brain activity in that head, a lot of the time. She was literally like a pup, just totally clueless about any social things happening around her and mostly just confused.

Nowadays she's still quiet and kind of withdrawn, much calmer than any other degu I've seen, but she's the one that keeps calling out warnings if she sees anything remotely out of place.

She also seems to imitate Suti, nowadays. She's started to cover the food bowls after she has eaten, like Suti has done previously, and she's copied Suti's weird running wheel spinning game, where she sits next to the wheel and spins it with her hands. She still comes off as a bit... simple at times, but I think the fact that she's keeping watch over her home (a normal degu behavior that pack members do in the wild) and copying her packmate (intrested in the behaviors of others, acting like others) are a real development. And just the way she behaves with Suti in general. Suti seems to have recognised this as well, because earlier, she (and Posso, when she was still in the cage) never behaved like Limppu was an actual pack member, more like she was a pup that just hung around them. Nowadays Suti socializes with her a lot more.

It feels like too big a coincidence that this started to develop soon after Pipari came to our house. It feels strange, but maybe that somehow "unclogged" her brains a bit. I guess there's nothing to it but keep observing how she'll develop now, but this is certainly very intresting.

[moletteuk]

I wonder if it's possible that bringing another female into the house helped to regulate Limppu's hormones, in the way that if you put groups of females together their cycles synchronise. Perhaps combined with some form of late develoment that was ready to occur. Hormones can affect brain function, so that could be linked too.

I also wonder if degus could be autistic, or something like it. (just googled it and looks like rodents can display something that at least appears like autism).

[teemu]

It's entirely possible that degus could have issues similar to autism. Their intelligence is very humanlike in some ways, and they are very socially-minded creatures. Laboratory tests have shown that degus that suffer from what could be termed an unstable childhood suffer from similar developmental issues that humans often develop in similar situation. I have had some opportunities to develop a bit of an understanding of children on the spectrum, and Limppu's behavior certainly is not totally dissimilar to that...

We had a bit of an altercation between Suti and Limppu today. My fault entirely. Pipari had been in the kitchen before them, and the girls went in after she was done. It's normally not been a big issue, sometimes Suti goes around a bit looking bossy because she can smell that another degu has been in, but it has never caused any actual incidents. Today, Suti got really pushy and kept pestering Limppu, and Limppu kept pushing back until it got into a rather serious fight (potentially serious anyway). They were grabbing and pulling fur and chasing each other until I could get one of them separated. No serious injuries, I think someone might have gotten scratched, but it could have gotten ugly if I hadn't intervened. I had to actually throw a blanket over Limppu because she was trying to leap at Suti, all legs outstretched. Just pushing them apart did nothing, and I had to keep her under the blanket for a good minute before she sobered up enough that I dared to fish her out. She was screaming bloody murder under there.

Luckily, they're back to normal in the cage. Limppu seemed to take the situation way harder than Suti. She kept crying after it happened in a way that I have never heard a degu cry (constant low whining, scarily close to a human sound in a way), and she seemed to be very inconsolable about what had happened and kept running up to Suti as if to make sure that everything was alright. Fortunately, Suti calmed down as soon as she got back into the cage, and now they're sitting next to each other and grooming. Inspecting each other to make sure that no one's seriously hurt. I'll keep watching to make sure that nothing sparks up again, but they've almost totally forgotten it already, it seems like.

I'll make sure to clean the floor well between degus in the future. It hadn't been a problem previously, but obviously I'll need to be more careful about it now.

[teemu]

It seems like Limppu's situation might be causing some unfortunate issues. When I take the girls out to the kitchen to play, thus far it's been fine, but Suti is often annoyed because she can smell that others have been there, no matter how much I scrub and clean. She goes around huffing, putting on airs and checking on Limppu to make sure she's not planning anything. But last saturday, they found over it, and now I've observed them getting worryingly ready to do it again. The problem as far as I can see is that Limppu actually starts to huff and puff back at her. For example, when Suti pushes her, or walks past her while lifting a back leg (I'm not sure if she actually pees on Limppu or is just posturing about it), Limppu actually starts to do it back at her. And then they start to fluff up...

I have not allowed it to turn into a fight again. I generally just take Limppu back home since she isn't too impressed about the playtime anyway. And when they get home, there's very little if any disagreements (usually about toys or who sleeps on whom), even if they were really quarrelsome in the kitchen. I think Suti had a heat some days back, but it should have already abated. I was hoping that that would explain the situation, but it does not seem to be working out.

I wonder if I should start taking them out to play separately for now? I clean the kitchen well enough that I'm sure no smells will be transported back into the cage at least. They're business as usual in the cage, so letting them get exercise alone would be much better than worrying about who's going to bite who.

Limppu actually did manage to bite Suti on Saturday and snagged more than just hair. Only a scrape, it's already mostly healed, but it was right on top of her spine. If she had bitten deeper (and I think she was really trying to just bite hard, she actually tore off a clump of fur very purposefully...), that could have been a cerious injury. Knowing Suti's general volatility and Limppu's total uniqueness, I really don't want to see what would happen if they pushed each other far enough. Dividing them into more lone cages would be such a bummer...

[moletteuk]

I certainly thinks it's worth doing something differently to nip this in the bud. Separate play times may work, but there is a chance it would set off some kind of jealousy or suspiscion or something like that. Do you have another location that you could use for playtime for Suti and Limppu?

Something I thought I would mention is there is sometimes a link between size/weight and dominance, so Limppu's increase in size and weight may be giving her ideas of dominance or conversely it could even be that aspirations of dominance could be linked with her increase in size.

[teemu]

Today was a much better day. Suti still postured really heavily at Limppu, and Limppu screamed at her, but they did not actually do anything. They mostly kept that up for a bit, and then it seemed like they got tired of the whole thing and went to doing normal things again. So it was slightly tense, but I think they're working through their issues, which is all I can ask for.