Bad Introductions

[mkish]

Hey!! For the past two months I've been trying to introduce my 2 new degus to my 2 old ones. Peanut and Honey are 6 months and are the new ones. Cinnamon is 6 years and Coco is 1 year who I've had since January. Let me tell you, it's nothing like I thought it'd be!! Cinnamon's missing a bit off her paw and just today she was screeching at Peanut and next thing I know there was blood everywhere! Peanut bit her tail and Cinnamon came running to me probably thinking I'd give her treats or cuddles like she wasn't picking the fight in the first place. These girls are too much! On the plus side Coco and Honey got past their fighting and just ignore each other or sniff through the bars but mainly ignoring each other (:

Okay so I just have a few questions, this first one is going to sound harsh but hear me out. I read that degus who have been alone are easier to introduce and I've had that happen with Coco and Cinnamon as proof. (Cinnamon lost her sister and Coco was the last in the store) So, would it be helpful if I put Coco and Honey in different cages by themselves for only a day than introduce them? It's just an idea so please don't come at me for it lol.

Next, can degus never get along? Like could my four have to be separated their entire lives because they'll always fight, could that be possible?

Lastly, if any of you have some bad introduction stories that become successful in the end could you please share them just for reassurance? 

Sorry I know that's a lot!! Thank you beforehand! (:

[deguconvert]

Well . . . I have to say that I am not surprised that there is fighting, and the reason for that is the ages that you are dealing with. Two 6 month old girls, right at the start of the adolescent stage, which will potentially last as long as 18 months of age. Now . . . hopefully it will be shorter, but it is impossible to predict. Next you have a 1 year old, and depending on where she is in her year of age 12 - 24 months . . . she may also be feeling the drive to assert dominance, more particularly over the younger girls. Cinnamon is well past that age, but if her dominance is challenged, she will likely fight to keep it.

This drive can be very powerful, and it is not in any way easily quelled or controlled. It must be lived through, and to a certain degree there must be fighting. I do not think it will help you at all to put them into solitary. If they were older and fighting and not inclined to get over their grudge, or whatever it is that is causing the fighting, then yes. It might help. There are cases where it has helped a lot! But these are typically degus over the age of two. What you are fighting is not a personally difference but hard wiring. This is what ALL degus will do through these months. The very timid ones will accept bottom of the rung, but the bold ones will fight tooth and nail to be dominant degu. And sometimes they are so bold and so crazed with the idea of being dominant, they insist that the submissive goo fight for the right to be submissive.

Since you would like to have examples of successful introductions . . . I'm going to borrow from a recent pm conversation where I describe my experience in my first year of having degus.

"Degus are INSANE for holding grudges! When we first got degus . . . we started with two males. We were told one was an adult and the other about 6 months of age. They were in a TINY compartment in the pet store. I now believe that the "young" one must have been nearer to a year, and the adult more like 2 years. ANYWAY . . . six weeks in to owning them, I had one of them out, and was playing with it in my kitchen, when the doorbell rang. I went to the door, greeted an unexpected friend, and learned that I had to be able to use both my hands. We chatted for a bit, she went and got the item, and when she needed to leave, I opened my bathroom door, put the degu in for safe keeping (didn't want my dogs chasing him), closed the door, said goodbye to my friend who was in a hurry, and went immediately back to the bathroom to retrieve the degu. I couldn't find him. Then I looked in the last place, and there he was, drowning in the toilet. I got him out and rubbed him down and did everything I could, but he was gone. Our one remaining boy was alone, my daughter was devastated, and we went out and bought two new males that were about 4 months old. We left them side by side, for just over a week, then did some introductions and VOILA! They blended perfectly!

For about two months.

Then the fighting began. The pups were now entering their adolescent/young adult phase and one of them, Peekachew, was DETERMINED to knock the dominant older male, Reepicheep, off his throne. Then began 8 months of on again off again introductions. I was thrown in the deep end, and came to this forum in desperation. I learned a lot about introductions in that time, and I got to know about the degu grudge. When they hold a grudge, they HOLD it with ALL their might. It took me eight months to get them to the place where they were fully bonded and very settled. HOWEVER, while at the end of seven months the challenger had submitted to the dominant, it still wasn't a fully accepted peace and the last month of that actually involved me taking dominant degu position. Every time a degu fight kicked off, I stormed in from WHEREVER I happened to be in the house. Foot stomping, yelling NO, and when I got to the cage, I slammed my hand on the table beside them and yelled NO again. ROFL. I absolutely refused to let them fight. As the month wore on, they would part as soon as they heard stomping, or NOT. If they rejoined the fight, thinking I was fooled and had left, I'd have sneaked back into the room to yell NO through the bars. They began to learn that I wasn't kidding and I WAS going to catch them. By the end of that month, it was finally peaceful."

Months 1 - 7? HELL. I would have saved myself some serious pain and heartache had I known then what I know now about adolescence in degus. You need to let the little girls grow and develop and mellow more. Wait three months and see what happens. If things kick off and two or three intros do nothing to move things along, wait another three months. Then another three months, and another three months if that's what it takes for them to mellow enough to start to work together. Don't drive yourself around the bend, nor create greater friction among them, by trying to get them together for months on end. There is no guarantee that it won't also be challenging at that point, but I expect it will be of shorter duration. Not the 8 months I waded through.

There is the potential that Peanut and Honey will fight to determine who is dominant between them. This also may not happen. You won't know . . . until you do. I wish I could be more certain for you. It's just kind of the way degus are. They have strong minds and wills of their own and they do not gladly fall in line with our ideas or plans. In fact . . . sometimes I'd say they take delight in foiling them.

However, I don't think you will end up with four degus that must be kept as individuals. They are colony animals, and they do prefer the companionship of other degus. So, you should have at least two pairs. At some point, you might have three together and one apart. Hopefully though, you will have success and all four will be together! I just don't see it happening very soon. I suggest you accept them as two and two, and enjoy them without regret or pangs. Get to know them really well and build an excellent bond with all of them. THEN when your young two are older, try the intros again.

These are my thoughts. Others may have different ideas.

[mkish]

Thank you so much for telling me your story!! Even though it was long a time it gave me lots of hope that I can get through this!! I’ve definitely tried the dominant degu but not like that, I usually just yell no or give them a light blow in the face but only to my younger ones. They fight none stop but nothing too serious. But, it does work I definitely notice as the days go by they fight less and less and as soon as I say no or come up to the cage they quit. I haven’t tried it on the fighting between all four though.

Should I take out the smaller cage in the younger girls cage to cut off all introductions and give them more room for a couple months?

Again thank you so much this really helped me!!

[moletteuk]

Isolating them all wouldn't work because you would need to do it for a few weeks to months and they would still recognise their previous partner from the other two newcomers when they all met again. Isolation for a day or two can be used when you already have a group and somebody is playing up and causing fights, so it's not that crazy an idea.

Yes, generally if it's not going too well the best thing for you and them is take the pressure off. Make sure that each pair has enough room to live comfortably and if possible arrange the cages side by side so they can see each other close through the bars,and give it time for everyone to get used to each other. You can experiment with how far apart the cages are depending on what signs you get from them.

[deguconvert]

Ditto Moletteuk! Definitely take the small cage out and let them have all the room for themselves! In fact, I think that will help a lot, because it wouldn't surprise me if having that small cage, which is occasionally occupied by strangers, inside their cage all the time feels like an invasion of sorts. It could certainly heighten their defensiveness and aggression.