URGENTLY need advice following dental op

[dazp92]

We took our degu Butters (that has had dental problems once before) in to the vets Friday, her lower incisors and right molars were overgrown and she had an infection/swelling in the right side of her mouth. She was given antibiotics and had the teeth burred down. The vet wasn't reassuring as he seemed eager to put her down despite already having done the treatment, he also hinted at it a lot before even inspecting her (which didn't give me a great impression of him originally as this was a different practice we went too). After the treatment he said he wanted to see us tomorrow (Tuesday) afternoon which is why I'm now seeking advice, it has been 3 days and she is still only taking soft foods and isn't very active, I.E. sleeping a lot.

We have been administering loxicom (for cats on the box :/ although the nurse said it was the same as metacam) which they prescribed. She appears to be gaining weight but is still showing discomfort around her mouth (slight drooling - not much and slight teeth chattering) and the reason I'm growing concerned there is not much else we can do for her, is her inactiveness and still not touching dry foods.

She has had a go at dry nuggets but doesn't seem to be able to chew them so obviously is still in discomfort despite painkillers. She has shown no interest in the dried herbs we also feed daily. I believe she still has the infection as she has only had one dose of antibiotics and she has a bit of a foul smell around her mouth,which I am hoping is the reason for her inactiveness. Ideally, I'd wait until the vet sees her, but because he seems to have a twitchy trigger finger and is eager to put her to sleep regardless, I am pleading for any advice.

I don't know whether I'm doing Butters more harm than good if she is indeed still suffering and if putting her to sleep is best as without dried foods, it's just going to reoccur. I have thought about cancelling the appointment with that vets and going to the more expensive but IMO more considerate vets we took her too before for a second opinion.
Any advice is greatly appreciated! Thank you!

[Deleted]

Hi please don't panic! I know it's really scary.

Can you not go back to the vet who did the original treatment? I really don't like the sound of this vet - like he doesn't value the life of small animals. I personally wouldn't take Butters back there.

How long is the course of antibiotic she's been given? Did he check for overgrown roots too?

We have had members here have problems with dental work and infections and they've soldiered on and given their degus the best chance at survival.. I think you need to consider at least trying for a few weeks, three days she could still be wobbly from the anaesthetic/pain killers might not be strong enough, or perhaps too strong. What dosage are you giving?

If she's gaining weight that's a good sign. When my boy was neutered he wouldn't eat for days and lost a lot of weight - they do so quickly as I'm sure you probably have seen. I wouldn't give up hope if she is eating and gaining weight and drinking.

I'm sure more well informed members with this area will come and help you as soon as they can.

[ntg]

Sorry to hear about Butter's ailing health dazp. If you don't feel confident in the vet that is seeing her then do get a second opinion on it. Really, the vet should have given you a course of antibiotics to give her a good chance of fighting the infection as quickly as it was found, and the fact that she is drooling and the mouth smells foul is a bad indicator.

She needs the vet asap, so if you can get the second opinion on her within the next day then it would be for the best, if not then you'll have to see the same vet (or a different vet from the same practice) and just be firm with them if you think it's more a case of not being willing to give her a fighting chance rather than them feeling strongly that fighting isn't in her best interest.

[ntg]

Oh, should say, after dental surgery it's quite common for degus to go off hard food for a few days as it can be quite uncomfortable for them since their mouths are stretched quite wide for the work to be done. Em is right in saying that weight gain is a positive sign, it's the infection that's more concerning in my mind.

[Deleted]

Ditto. I would try and contact your preferred vet - state it's a potentially life threatening emergency and get seen.

I'm really confused about the antibiotic, did they just give her one dose? Not a course?

[dazp92]

Thanks for your replies Emily
& ntg, it's really eased my mind somewhat. I couldn't help but feeling I was doing the wrong thing and being selfish in not wanting to give up on her. It's just the manner of the vet seemed like she was a lost cause. Sorry Emily, should have elaborated on that. She was given the one shot of antibiotics when she was under and that was all, as he did not give me any further to administer, I was under the impression that it would clear it up. He said if she didn't start eating dried foods soon then to bring her in earlier to be put to sleep as she wouldn't keep on top of the molars which in fairness, she will struggle with them again eventually because she is fussy and doesn't eat nearly enough hay as our other two do which is why we feed her dried herbs mainly (have tried several brands of hay over the last couple of years to no avail). The last operation we had with our preferred vet (Tollbarn) was almost a year ago. But they were a lot more expensive which is why I tried this vet (Westover) as they were recommended to be good but cheaper by someone on a social media group. Seems to be a case of the grass isn't always greener. I should also mention, we weren't comfortable with how he handled her, he asked us to get her out of the travel box which we did happily as Butters is skittish, we passed her over for him wrapped in a towel so she felt more secure (what the vets at Tollbarn did last year), but he then picked her up by the scruff, which would instantly distress her of course but as he was the vet we trusted he knew what he was doing. I have looked it up that degus can be picked up by the scruff, but the vet at Tollbarn (the preferred vets) didn't opt for that, and she used a camera to peer in her mouth last time. I've also never heard of anyone else doing this. I don't mean to come across like I'm slating the vets and forming a witch hunt as he did seem knowledgeable about degus and their mouths, it was just his lack of compassion and 'customer care' and with your advice, I think I will try and get her seen at Tollbarn again instead, although I did have to unregister her from there Thursday to go over to Westover,hopefully they won't mind!

[dazp92]

Also the dose of Loxicom - on the box it's says one dose daily for a degu of 0.2Kg..but the 0.5ML syringe we have is designed for cats up to 10KG, the smallest measurement is for a 0.5KG cat so we kind of have to do it by eye and have given her two shots for a 0.2Kg animal each morning and in the evening. She currently weighs 154G as of last night. More then prescribed but to me it doesn't look enough. I know 150G seems small for a degu (is compared with our other two) but the most she has ever weighed in her prime has been around 200G. We think she was a 'runt' of the litter

[Deleted]

Most degus won't chow down on hay.
Nuggets are so-so.
You should try different types of forage. Around 10 a week if you can. My degus and pretty much everyone's love forage, you have to find the ones they like but when you do!!! It more naturally simulates what they'd eat in the wild - very good for their teeth as they have to grind and not bite at a nugget. Have a look on our diet section. www.zooplus.co.uk sell lots, have a look and I personally advise buying some, especially for Butters. Dried herbs if they're small pieces don't necessarily go down well - you need to find the ones they like again. Some degus will take small bits but others won't. Forage and herbs etc should be unlimited access; as should hay.
You could also buy a seed mix or make one. It'll be good for Butters especially but I feed it to mine every day. Where are you from if you don't mind me asking?

It's odd they gave a shot of antibiotic.. is it possible it's a full course in one dose? Is that even a thing?

You really don't need to put her to sleep yet.

He picked her up by the scruff?! I definitely wouldn't go back there and I'd also post your poor experience on whatever social media group you are in. If it's a degu social media group I would take the advice on there with a pinch of salt. Many social media groups use out of date sources for information on degus - and there are plenty of out of date/bad sources out there.

I've never heard of a degu being picked up by it's scruff. Ever.

Im sure Westover won't mind!

Don't worry too much about her weight if her prime is 200g.. as long as she's gaining. I don't think slipping much below 150g is gonna be good as she's already lost around 40g. Degus do vary in weight and size. I think generally on here degus are on average between 200-270g. But I have a tiny degu who I haven't even weighed but I doubt she's more than 170g.
They hide weight loss well, so definitely keep weighing her.

[ntg]

It's usually about 1-2 drops of loxicom from the dropper for a standard dose if that's any easier for you to measure out?

[dazp92]

We do only give them two types of dried herbs, (Burgess country garden/mountain meadow but they must get tired of the same thing) I weren't sure where else to get some from so thanks for the link! I'm from Norfolk, UK.

I thought it was odd for just one shot, I don't know really, I wouldn't have thought infection can be treated with one course.

Yeah picked her up and held her by the scruff the entire time he inspected her. Didn't give me a good feeling leaving her for the op, may have done a bodged job of her molars teeth if he had little interest in her recovery which I hope isn't true.

Just incase you give advice to others in my area, Norfolk does not have many vets that deal with degus so I'll clear up which vets I mean.. Both are based in North Walsham (I live about 50mins away in Dereham) Tollbarn is the vet I originally took her too, Westover vets is the vets I took her too Friday, they may have other vets that deal with small furries there but the one I saw appears to be the head vet for rodies/furries. If Tollbarn say different regarding Butters when I get her in there, I will make sure I give feedback so other Degu owners avoid. Thanks again for both of your advice, anything else you can think of is great. I'll keep you posted how I get on anyway.

[Deleted]

dazp92 there's some great sites online!

What I do even now is open up our list of safe herbs/plants/tree list and then go on www.Zooplus.co.uk in the degu section, go on each of the different things in the (I think it says forage) section, and compare ingredients on the packet list to the safe list and if all is safe then I buy! They do decent bulk deals too. Stay away from their treat area, commercial treats aren't good. The flowers are fine though. Here's a link to the area: m.zooplus.co.uk/shop/small_pets/snacks_supplements/natural_plant_snacks

There's also: www.ratrations.com who sell the seed mix I was on about! I give mine a teaspoon full each every day, (per degu) here's the link: www.ratrations.com/degu-seed-mix-p-1235.html?zenid=sdj19v8n809gg5o11qico7ihl1
They also sell all good stuff for forage! What I do is when I need some more seed I buy all my forage from there, but between that I buy it from Zooplus as postage is better at Zooplus, but nowhere else sells the seed mix.
www.ratrations.com/herbage-seed-dried-plant-c-18.html



One shot is odd.. I don't understand why a vet would do that.. I didn't think you could give a full course of antibiotic in one go.. might be wrong though.

I hope all goes well for Butters. When is she booked into go to Tollbarn?

If she does majorly stop eating then you can buy some critical care.

Sunflower seeds are fairly high in fat, so you could offer her those for treats to tempt her to eat/gain weight.

[dazp92]

I'll make sure I browse zooplus tonight and get some variety, thanks very much .
She's booked into Tollbarn tomorrow the same time as her other appointment. Expecting Westover to ring me at some stage as Tollbarn have requested her medical history back so I'll cancel then or ring them before they close if they don't call. We had some critical care but run out of supply, she does love that, I requested some Friday but they only had 'recovery' liquid feed which she had before but is a bit hit and miss with. She sometimes eats it with porridge oats mixed up into a ball of paste. Will try sunflower seeds again, she didn't take them Saturday night. Trying just about everything atm haha even tried a spoonful of original ready brek and water yesterday (surprisingly very little sugar) but no dice, such a fussy madam thank you again!

[Deleted]

You can try organic baby foods too.

[winic1]

To get one of my goos to take his medicine, I ground up his favorite seeds into powder, then put the drop of med into it and stirred it up into a lumpy paste. He loved it! I only had to put the spoon in front of him and he ate it all up, no grabbing him, no forcing, no problem. Degus don't lick well, so if you try this be sure to lump up the paste (pile it up high, not smooth & flat) so he can grab the lumps off the spoon.

[deguconvert]

I hope you can get in to Tollbarn vets very soon and that they will help you with Butters healing and return to full health. I am certainly not impressed with all that you share about the Westover vet. NASTY!

Do let us know how she is getting on?

[dazp92]

Can't thank you all enough, last evening me and my partner were at our wits end thinking she wouldn't be with us, not out the woods but you've all given us a new outlook. Her update is still the same, although she has been a lot more active than usual. She ate some of the recovery liquid food mixed with oats earlier, not a great lot though so I softened up several nuggets, disguised a couple of drops of Loxicom on them which she has eaten. She's on a heatpad atm, on a dose of Loxicom so hope she is comfortable for the evening!

[titchycatnipsandwich]

May 15, 2017 13:24:21 GMT dazp92 said:

We do only give them two types of dried herbs, (Burgess country garden/mountain meadow but they must get tired of the same thing) I weren't sure where else to get some from so thanks for the link! I'm from Norfolk, UK.

I thought it was odd for just one shot, I don't know really, I wouldn't have thought infection can be treated with one course.

Yeah picked her up and held her by the scruff the entire time he inspected her. Didn't give me a good feeling leaving her for the op, may have done a bodged job of her molars teeth if he had little interest in her recovery which I hope isn't true.

Just incase you give advice to others in my area, Norfolk does not have many vets that deal with degus so I'll clear up which vets I mean.. Both are based in North Walsham (I live about 50mins away in Dereham) Tollbarn is the vet I originally took her too, Westover vets is the vets I took her too Friday, they may have other vets that deal with small furries there but the one I saw appears to be the head vet for rodies/furries. If Tollbarn say different regarding Butters when I get her in there, I will make sure I give feedback so other Degu owners avoid. Thanks again for both of your advice, anything else you can think of is great. I'll keep you posted how I get on anyway.

ZOMG. One of my friends is from your neck of the woods originally, which I have lovingly termed "ass-end of nowhere with the world's most awful internet". I never expected to find someone else from the area, it sounds like such a tiny village place that I was starting to suspect he was the only person who'd ever lived there

Back to the topic: antibiotic shots are quite commonly given by the vets I've used to minimise the amount of work I have to do post-op with my goo. When they are post-op, they're small and fluffy, don't want to be handled and despite painkillers are usually in pain, making them bitey and skittish. My vets have always given a one-off dose of injectable antibiotic and one of painkiller to make it so I don't have to handle them for 24h post-op if they don't want to be handled. So it wasn't wrong for the Westover vet to give her a shot; it was probably wrong that they didn't give you a course of oral antibiotics to administer after the 24h was up.

Take her back to Tolbarn. You're going to need antibiotics that will cover anaerobic bacteria, so you're probably going to get either a combination of Baytril (enrofloxacin) and metronidazole as two separate antibiotics (covers skin bacteria and gut bacteria), or maybe Septrin (co-trimoxazole) - if the vet is friendly, talk to them. Ask the vet not to dilute the antibiotics down - dilution makes them easier to measure, but harder to administer (you can sneak 0.2mL of antibiotic into a goo before they've worked out what's going on, and if you get lucky like I did with Zoe he'll come begging for the syringe. If they dilute it to 2ml... She'll end up wearing most of it).

It also means if she won't take it plain, you can dilute it with squash - I know sugar is bad for goos, but I suspect the sugared squash is better for them than the artifical-sweetener-laden squash and you won't be using it long term unless things are horribly horribly wrong, in which case what's a bit of sugar? I used Ribena for Zoe's doxycyline, simply because proper Ribena was actual recognisable ingredients rather than long lists of sweeteners and stablilisers and preservatives, and you don't need much Ribena to make the antibiotic palatable for a goo. What I would say is that it might reduce the stability of your antibiotic (more likely to degrade and be ineffective), so if you need to dilute the antibiotic, take a small volume out of the bottle (work out how many doses you'll need to give for one week, then halve it) and put it into another container. If you put an equal volume of Ribena in that container, you have made the maths easy for yourself

If her dose is 0.1mL BD, measure 0.5mL into a clean sealable container. Put 0.5mL of Ribena into that container. Close container, gently shake it, then use your tiny syringe to withdraw 0.2mL of the resulting suspension. That's your dose! Make sure you shake the container well before you draw up the diluted volume into the syringe.

Hopefully, you shouldn't need to dilute it. Like I say, my goos come begging for antibiotics. But, some goos don't like it and yours has mouth troubles - that will make her somewhat less compliant with syringes being stuck in her mouth. Shout if you need help, I did mouth-woe-antibiotics for ~3 months and I learnt a few tricks on the way

[moletteuk]

Are you booked in again at Tollbarn?

Just to reassure you that cat Loxicom is standard for degus and dosages given can vary a lot, from a couple of drops to 0.3ml (12 drops?), I was recently given 0.1ml and I felt comfortable with that as useful without being risky. I also agree with Titchy that it's common for vets to give injections while you are there and then give you oral doses to take away and start the next day, I think this is usually a good idea.

It's common for degus to take up to a week to improve their eating after dental treatment, but if you aren't seeing much improvement after a week, it is worth getting a second opinion at Tollbarn on the work done because it is quite difficult to get the levels that they need to bur to just right and it can cause secondary issues if they don't get it right, also the very back teeth are difficult to see and reach and it is possible to miss spurs right at the back. I would say painkillers and aggressive antibiotics are a priority right now.

Scruffing a degu is not acceptable. I would not go back to a vet that scruffed a degu.

[titchycatnipsandwich]

Scruffing is definitely not a good thing (Molly and Vicky were both amazing, they had this magic secret way of holding Zoe where he'd just go limp and wouldn't argue with them, but I have not yet been able to recreate it). The vet that got fired from my local practice tried picking River's rear end up by his tail (one of her many malpractices...)

[dazp92]

Wow, really helpful stuff titchycatnipsandwich on antibiotics! I imagine I will end up quizzing you further because Butters is a pain when trying to get her to take anything that's good for her. I'll definitely do what you suggested all being well. I'm confident with Tollbarn and that they will treat her infection properly.
Dereham where I am is actually a very large town, it has gone downhill over the years though so we would like to buy a house elsewhere (rodies vet bills depending). There are a few large towns around Norfolk and several on the coast. Of course there's the city of Norwich but the vast majority is countryside and small villages. You are right about the Internet too haha.

Our Billie goes all lame when we hold her upright under her arms, her back legs just hang down, she's very pliant haha. Butters though as I say is too skittish (although she will sit and fall asleep on the sofa anywhere she can snuggle in) and Chip will sometimes honour you briefly by sitting on your hand but that's it haha.

Thanks for your reply Moletteuk, that's helpful to know. She is being seen today by Tollbarn at 4:30. Me and my missus are leaving off work so we can both take her up, I will ask the vets opinion of what the work done is like today, the lady before done it with ease with a little camera. No scuffing involved either thankfully!