elderly degu with eating/teeth problems

[lizzie]

I have a female degu who is 8 yrs 10 mos. old.  We've had her since birth.  Several months ago she stopped eating her regular pellets and timothy hay, and has since developed teeth problems.  We had her incisors filed about a month ago, but they have grown back very quickly, and she now has incisor malocclusion.  (I don't know about the molars.)  Initially we were able to give her Critical Care, but she won't take it any more.  I know that her diet is bad for her, but it seems to be that or starve.  I am hoping for suggestions about what else could be tried.

She is still able to pick up and gnaw on food, but I am guessing that she might not be able to handle harder things like the degu pellets.  I am not sure why she stopped eating hay.  (I continue to give her timothy hay and pellets every day, but see no sign of her eating them.)  She has never been willing to eat fresh vegetables, but I finally offered her cooked veggies and she will eat those.  Her current diet is walnuts, some pecans and almonds, oats and oat bran, (cooked) broccoli, zucchini, and yellow squash.  I've also tried spinach but don't think she ate much.  I have gotten "treats" that are largely hay, and others that are hay and seed.  She nibbled a bit of the latter but I think they were too hard for her. 

I am in the U.S., and our area no longer has an experienced degu vet.  I have taken her to one who is willing to try to help, which seems to be the best I can do.  (I checked everything I could find within 100 miles (160 km) and there is no one.)  I realize that she is an older degu, but she seems-- apart from this-- still happy.  She runs in her wheel, "sings" every day, and is eager for attention.  I would like to see if we can get her back to some healthy diet so that the teeth don't cause her to suffer.

[deguconvert]

You really need to have her molars checked. Her incisors alone could not cause such great distress and difficulty with eating. She probably has food coming out the sides and front of her mouth, yes? If so this is a strong indicator that she has big issues with her molars. If she has spurs, they can block the back of her mouth and prevent food being swallowed, they can pierce her tongue, cheeks, or the roof of her mouth, which is very painful and can become badly infected. The sooner you have her looked at, sedation will be needed to have a sufficient look, the better it is for her. The longer she has difficulty with eating the more poorly she will become, and she will grow weaker. They usually call the procedure for dealing with spurs, burring. Hopefully your vet will have a better than good idea of how this works. I hope that others will answer, because there are people here that can help that have personal experience with this trouble. I never did have anything like this in my degus.

[lizzie]

Thanks for your thoughts. The vet did try to check her molars and didn't see anything, but wasn't absolutely sure. Because of her age, there was hesitation about sedation. No-- no food coming out of her mouth. She eats very happily-- just not what she needs to eat.

[yasmin]

It is very good that she is still eating a variety of foods. A few thoughts:

• One thing you can try is to take a mortar and pestle and grind up pellets, then add a bit of water and make little sausages or pancakes or whatever shape she will eat. If she won't eat it like that, try experimenting with different combinations like adding ground up nuts, or oats, etc. to the mix.

•I don't know how you can get hay into her but you could try alfalfa hay – there is often powdered alfalfa at the bottom of the bag as well that can be made into a paste and formed, or added to ground up pellets or whatever else works.

• Another thing that I do for my degus with eating problems but won't eat the Critical Care is I mix the Critical Care in with baby food. My guys like Organic Root Vegetable Baby Food, and Organic Sweet Potato baby food. Organic Pea and Organic Squash could also work. Just check the ingredients on the jar to make sure that nothing has been added that degus shouldn't eat (like fruits, sugar, etc.). I mix a quarter teaspoon of Critical Care to 2 teaspoons of baby food, then feed it to them either on a spoon which I hold for them, or I place it on little plates in their cage.

• It might be worth trying is giving her the pain kiler/anti-inflammatory Metacam once a day (one drop in/on whatever she will eat).

• Can the vet take an X-ray without sedating her? My vet can do this by putting the degu in a sock-like tube.

[moletteuk]

Some great suggestions there on the food side from Yasmin, and like deguconvert I am also concerned about what is going on with the molar teeth. You could try feeling along her jaw line to check for lumps of downward root growth, although it won't tell you anything about possible spurs.

She's going to need some calcium otherwise the dental issues are likely to accelerate. So this means forage, paricularly meadow plants like dandelion and ribwort plantains (broad or narrow leaved (not the banana things)) and culinary herbs usually have good calcium content, and also alfalfa. See if she shows any interest in whole pieces of these plants, fresh or dried, if she isn't too interested you can crush them up and include them in a mixed mash. The other good source of calcium is high calcium oil seeds, this means seeds of fennel, nigella, celery, coriander, caraway, dill, cumin, poppy, sesame. Again, as Yasmin says, you can grind them up and add them to a mash.

If she really likes nuts, sometimes you can use small amounts crushed up to disguise other foods that might be better for her.

What kind of colouration level are her teeth?

[lizzie]

Thank you, Yasmin! The short answer is that I have, in the past 6-7 weeks, tried all of those things except the baby food. That sounds like a good idea, and I'll give it a try. I can also ask the vet about the tube x-ray. And I recently started giving her Metacam once a day.

And thank you, Moletteuk, as well! I tried your suggestion of feeling her jaw and didn't feel anything, though am not confident in my assessment. However, she didn't mind at all-- in fact was happy to get petted-- so at least it seems that she isn't tender or sensitive. Her teeth have gotten much whiter, though not evenly so. It looks to me like they are changing (for the worse) daily.

The calcium is a big problem. I have tried fennel, celery, coriander, caraway, dill, and sesame seeds -- straight, sprinkled on wet food, mixed into oats, and mixed with Critical Care. She didn't touch any of it. I have also tried alfalfa and even orchard grass-- straight, ground... even boiled. I have tried every form and combination I could come up with. I have not tried the culinary herbs, and can, but she's never been an adventurous eater and I am doubtful that she will try a new plant form of food. I also tried to find out about calcium supplements, but without success. The vet was not in favor of the idea. I welcome any other ideas about the calcium. Thanks.

[deguconvert]

Have you looked at the calcium powders they have for reptiles?

[winic1]

There is also liquid calcium sold for birds, unlike the human stuff it is not chalky white goo, it is clear liquid, that might be an option to try, too.

[winic1]

Just curious, where in the US are you? I'm in the Northeast, a bit out from New York City.

[lizzie]

Deguconvert and winic1-- Can you give me any specific instructions on the calcium powders and liquids? I did look. The liquids, as I recall, had other things added. I am not able to buy the powder at any pet store near to me. (I can order it online.) I checked a health food store for a calcium powder, but didn't find anything. If you can give me any specifics-- brands, amounts, what additives are ok and what are not-- I would appreciate it.

(winic1- I am in the southeast.)

[deguconvert]

I have no personal experience with the calcium powders, and know only that there are some who find them quite useful. I hope that some will speak up.

[lizzie]

Thanks. I'd love information. I don't want to try something without knowing how to use it, especially as the vet didn't care for the idea. I'd love information from anyone who has it.

[moletteuk]

I have used Vetark Calci-dust (just calcium powder which is readily available) and Vetark Zolcal-D (calcium and vit D in a liquid), I've used the powder to correct low calcium levels in commercial food and I've used the liquid in small amounts for a sick degu who wasn't eating much healthy stuff at end of life.

The calci dust is fairly easy to work out the dosage, it is made of calcium carbonate which contains 0.4g calcium per 1.0g of product. I've weighed this with jewellery scales and half a (proper measuring) teaspoon holds 2.5g of powder which equals one gram of calcium.

Generally the diet should contain about 1% of calcium, so it depends what calcium may already be in the food, but if there is virtually no calcium in a particular food, then you would add the full 1%. So, say you were mixing up 5g of baby food, you could add up to 0.05g of calcium which is 0.125g powder. 5g/100=0.05g calcium = 0.125g powder 1g powder fits in 0.2 tsp, so 0.125g powder = 0.025tsp, which is 1/5 of a 1/8 measuring teaspoon. So if you have a set of tiny measuring spoons, the 1/8tsp is usually the smallest, so you want to fill that about 1/5 full.

I guess if you wanted to just figure out how much calcium they need per day assuming they eat 10g of food with virtually no calcium already in it, then that would be up to 2/5 of a 1/8tsp of powder. Perhaps start with something less than that or whatever lesser amount you feel OK with, just for a few days and monitor closely the urine output. You should see some urine drying slightly white, but not majorly crusty white.

The Zolcal-D calcium liquid with vit D and magnesium could be worth considering if she isn't eating much commercial food with vitamin D supplement in it. In which case the equivalent dose is 2.9ml of the liquid (which contains 35mg if calcium per ml as stated on bottle). (1% of 10g equals 100mg, 100/35= 2.9ml) I will say that the dosage rates on the bottle given for direct administation and dilution in water and application to food don't really tally up with my calculations or with each other, but different animals are going to eat and drink at very different rates so perhaps that explains that.

I want to make it clear that non of this is vet approved, I've done all the calculations myself based on ideal calcium content of diet being 1%, which is accepted knowledge (1 to 1.2%). If anyone sees anything that doesn't make sense with the numbers then let me know. You will need to think about any calcium she may already be getting and subtract that and go very carefully using proper measuring 1/8 teaspoons. Artificial calcium like calcium carbonate is said to be readily absorbable by the body, so given that her teeth are getting observably paler, I think it could be worth a try, but it has to be your decision.

[deguconvert]

Wow! That is a lot of maths! Thank you for all of that, Moletteuk! You always amaze me with your skill in working these things out, and then putting them together. I just get confused, LOL. You ROCK!!!

[lizzie]

Thank you, Moletteuk!!

I have looked for these items before without success. If anyone knows how to get either Vetark product in the U.S., could you please post the information? Or if there is something comparable? Thanks. (I see that the Zolcal-D can be ordered, but it takes 4-6 weeks for delivery.)

The calcium that she is getting now is through the walnuts, and a bit through the broccoli. I think that her tooth color might be improving some... maybe. She is definitely slowing down. I just want to keep her comfortable and happy in her old age. (I still hear her "singing" each day, and that is good.)

[winic1]

The calcium product sold for birds is called Calciboost. It is available in both liquid and powder forms from a number of pet bird websites. Being designed for birds, it will be at a much lower concentration than the human stuff. However, I cannot find any info on exactly what the strength of the various forms are, to be able to tell you dosages. One really good site, with a very helpful owner, Terri, is www.glamgouldians.com, and this is the product glamgouldians.com/product-calciboost.php . If you contact Terri, she might be able to tell you the strength of the products and then we could tell you dosages, (or if you tell her some of the numbers above, she might be able to help you), and she usually ships stuff out almost immediately.

[deguconvert]

I LOVE that she sings each day!! Degu song is really lovely!