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Post by yasmin on Jun 5, 2014 4:11:45 GMT
Yes I have moletteuk. This is the reference I use when deciding what to feed them. It's a great tool. However, I guess I might have gotten a bit carried away. I really thought that the excess calcium would be safely peed out. I thought that it was a lack of phosphorus that was the main problem – that they needed the phosphorus to bind with the calcium in order for it to be of use to the body. So, I didn't worry about there being too much calcium. Now I am not sure of anything. Still, did make myself go out onto the property this morning and get one small dandelion leaf for each degu and, now that the clover are flowering and I can tell what sort of clover I'm picking, I picked the odd clover leaf and flower from those clovers listed on DIF as being good for them, along with a dandelion flower or two and a few sprigs of grass seeds, and put one each into each cage. No degu got more than two bits of anything. I will definitely limit what Makoto gets; though the little fellow totally loves his greens. I am keeping an eye on Makoto. If he starts looking sickly again, I will start the antibiotic again and do whatever I need to do to complete a 7-day course.
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Post by deguconvert on Jun 8, 2014 0:01:15 GMT
Several days later, but how is he doing now?
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Post by ntg on Jun 8, 2014 19:19:35 GMT
I will ask the vet about antibiotics for the water – any antibiotic other than Baytril would be worth a try. I have decided to discontinue the Baytril for now. Not much of it gets into him and it is causing us both a lot of stress. As well, if I can't get the full dosage into him and won't be able to keep up with the battle of medicating him twice a day for the 2 weeks prescribed, aren't I then creating an environment in his body perfect for the bacteria to become resistant to it? No antibiotic, no development of resistance and his body immune system is working to create the antibodies needed to fight off the infection now and in the future. If I notice him becoming lethargic again then I will try again. (Please make any counter arguments to this rationale. I don't know if it is my brain or my severely sleep-deprived condition that is making this up.) You're right to think that stopping the antibiotics this way will encourage bacterial resistance. However, the logic behind the not using them is a little flawed from a biology standpoint Generally speaking, ABs are used as an aide to your immune system to fight an infection that it isn't coping with by itself. AB resistance in bacteria doesn't mean resistance to the body's immune system either so, at worst it just means that the AB is ineffective on the bacterial strain, so it won't be useful in fighting infection. That's when a different AB will be used that will still work on the bacteria. Also, you have the mechanism behind the Ca:P right, but anything can become detrimental in excess, particularly over a prolonged period of time! I really hope he's doing better now
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Post by moletteuk on Jun 9, 2014 17:09:21 GMT
How is Makoto now and how are you feeling about things now, Yasmin?
Since the diet is definitely working well for many of your goos, and we don't know for sure what has happened with Makoto, personally, I would stick with the diet, maybe you could reduce some of the high calcium plants a little, but I wouldn't do anything drastic. What do you think?
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Post by yasmin on Jun 9, 2014 17:21:29 GMT
Glad to report, Makoto is doing fine. It's been a week now and he's totally back to his ole hyper self. Keeping a close watch still but so far, so good. Yeah, I know that the antibiotics are useful and an important tool in fighting infection and preventing secondary infection. Just think I got discouraged because Makoto fights so hard and resists so strongly. Had little problem giving ABs to Azure, and Lilac drinks the stuff right from the dropper – mind you, the ABs were berry flavoured then. The last two batches I was provided were banana-flavoured, and the one I special-ordered was peanut butter flavoured – Makoto won't touch these. (The vet had said that I was getting berry-flavoured Baytrl but that's not what I was actually given. Will insist on berry-flavoured next time and see if that helps.) I am careful now feeding everyone only 2 clover leaves at most per day. Now I know that 7 clover leaves are too many – guess I was just lucky that none of the other 14 suffered bloat (perhaps Makoto was helping himself to Chuugi's clover leaves and OD'd on 7+). Not sure about the blood in the pee though and how that all relates. At least I am learning what "too much" actually is – still not sure about what too much Calcium is and how long is too long. I read about these degu owners who have their goos on an exclusively SAB diet and how it is working for them. Just trying to move toward their ideal but I am now freaked out about it all. Wouldn't be so desperate about it if my goos weren't genetically predisposed to teeth issues – but they are.
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Post by ntg on Jun 9, 2014 18:31:46 GMT
I think that's the problem, you seem to have a very unique situation where genetics seems to be playing such a large role in their dental health. A lot of the people on SAB which are showing success are likely to be those where diet was the biggest issue and needed some changes. I know it must be so disheartening for you, nobody can deny how much you care about all your babies and you do so much for them. I guess the brightside is that at the very least, the times between getting their spurs burred is longer than it was? I'm so happy that he's his normal self again
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Post by yasmin on Jun 10, 2014 17:31:49 GMT
Yes, that chart is very helpful. As is their chart on seeds. However, I think I've missed the part that outlines the daily maximums of Calcium:Phosphorus (?) Fortunately, Makoto has been back to his usual self for over a week now. I've decided to minimize the amount of clover I am offering – perhaps a couple of leaves each degu, once every five days or so. I've gone back to feeding leaves and seeds from the organic store – like I was doing all winter without any issue but will keep the amounts down. Don't know what else to do.
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Post by moletteuk on Jun 11, 2014 10:42:00 GMT
Calcium is supposed to be around 1 to 1.2% for total diet. I think it depends how big a range of plants you are offering, if there is a good range, then I think a proportion of them being over 1.2% calcium just serves to balance all the ones under that. Don't forget that hay only has about 0.3 to 0.5% calcium www.guinealynx.info/hay_chart.html
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Post by yasmin on Jun 11, 2014 15:12:44 GMT
Calcium is supposed to be around 1 to 1.2% for total diet.l Thanks, moletteuk. This is helpful.
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Post by yasmin on Sept 17, 2014 0:49:26 GMT
Makoto is peeing blood again. Otherwise, he is doing fine – active, alert, bright-eyed.
Not sure whether to take him to the vet or not. Last time this happened, the vet I saw (not the usual one) could only confirm it was blood. Couldn't identify the exact issue so she told me to try baytril. Couldn't get baytril into him – he's a feisty one – but his urine totally cleared up in a few days,
Any advice, thoughts, ideas are welcomed.
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 17, 2014 16:17:16 GMT
Well, you could wait and see if it clears itself again, but if this is going to be a recurring thing it would be good to get to the bottom of it. Maybe you could make a specific appointment with your preferred vet or even just speak to him on the phone.
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Post by yasmin on Sept 17, 2014 19:04:05 GMT
So, no more blood this morning. That's good. And he's still as active as always.
Yes, moletteuk – My preferred vet did say I could email him if there was an issue that I wasn't sure about and he would let me know if I need to come in or not. Will wait to see how Makoto does in the next 24 hours.
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