15 degus in danger of developing dental issues - need plan

[yasmin]

My goal in starting this thread is to solicit advice and for it to act as a sort of diary (if I can find the emotional energy to be disciplined enough to keep this up) for future reference.

Background:
Adopted 4 degus from Humane Society in June 2011. Supposed to be 4 females; actually 3 females, one male. All three females pregnant.
Azure (aged 3.5 years at the time) – miscarried 4.
Lilac (aged 3,5 years at the time) – gave birth to 6, 5 survived: 4 females, 1 male
Peridot (aged 1.5 years at the time) – gave birth to 4 females, 3 males.
Father is Sean (aged 1.5 years at the time)

Last year, Azure at age 4.5 years started developing spurs on her teeth – the spurs grew over her tongue, pinning it down. Over the course of 6 months, she had several filings. June of last year, I noticed a bump under her eye. X-ray showed she had molar roots growing into her eye socket and down past the bottom of her jaw. Vet said there was nothing to be done but put her down. I wanted her home – vet filed spurs then sent her home with Critical Care, antibiotics and painkillers. She passed away half an hour after returning home.

May 2013 – Her sister Lilac has now developed dental issues. Again, teeth are growing "like Sabertooth tiger teeth but inwards" again heading toward her tongue. She had her first filing on the 16th. She is now 5.5 years old.

Issue: If this is genetic, then it is probable that all of Lilac' children will develop this issue; and likely that Peridot and Sean and all of their children will also have inherited this.

Hope: That this can at least be controlled via diet. The fact that Lilac is showing these issues a year after Azure is hopeful.

Present diet:
Versele Laga Degu Nature mixed with Sunseed Sunscription Vital Degu pellets
They get fresh vegetables like Dandelion, Green beans, Sweet potato, carrot, broccoli, etc. Don't give too much for fear of bloating, and don't give carrots/sweet potato – veggies with higher sugar content – more than once or twice a month.
They have Timothy Hay every day. As a treat they get Alfalfa Hay or Timothy hay mixed with dried flowers.
They get Rosehips once every three days.
Sometimes they get puffed rice or oats as a treat.

Theory:
Ca:P ratio. I'm upping feeding them fresh dandelion and Alfalfa Hay to increase the Calcium they are ingesting.

Other thoughts:
UVB light - I provide my birds with this when they look ill but just read that this may not be necessary if fed a processed diet. (Am I reading this correctly?)
Pet store friend suggested that I give them cuttle bones to chew on? Any thoughts?

I have to more carefully read the research that has been so conveniently provided on this site along with the nutrition values of different food. (Many thanks for this. )

Any advice/suggestions/opinions will be much appreciated.

[moletteuk]

There's a lot we don't understand about this topic, but we do have quite a few indications of things that are likely to be important in terms of diet.

The first thing is digestible fibre. Degus have a hindgut fermentation digestion system, which means that after normal digestion in the stomach, degus have a special system which allows them to digest and take energy from fibre (hemicellulose & pectin). So logic dictates that we need to feed them as much as possible of this type of food. This basically means plants, preferably wild type plants, herbs, tree leaves, grasses, flowers.

The next issue is fresh or dried plants? Anecdotal evidence suggests that fresh plants can really help with dental issues. Fresh grasses and other plants, especially horsetails, contain silicates which are very abrasive at a microscopic level, and so are good for wearing teeth. Fresh plants probably also have other benefits like better vitamin content, calcium already dissolved and so possibly more readily absorbed by the body and so on.

It can be difficult to persuade degus to eat fresh, so the next best thing is dried wild plants, they still contain all the digestible fibre.


The next big talking point is calcium and calcium to phosphorus ratio. There isn't enough solid information out there, it's not fully understood, but the theory has been around a long time and applying to many mammals that calcium should be double the phosphorus, Ca:P = 2:1. The recent research that was discussed showed that Ca:P of 1:1 can cause dental disease, including stimulating tooth overgrowth in all directions, not just affecting tooth quality. Only one other ratio 2:1 was tested in the research, but they had decent dental health (with vit D 700 IU/kg). So with the information we currently have, I think it is best to try to aim for Ca:P of 2:1

You've already identified two good ways of achieving this which are wild plants, like dandelion, which tend to have approximately the right ratio (or even more Ca for dandelion), and alfalfa, which has a ratio of around 5:1 so is a good way to boost calcium (although alfalfa does have fairly high protein). Another possibility is to supplement with an artificial calcium supplement, which is how most commercial foods are supplemented, and is common in reptile feeding, but is new (and possibly controversial) for degus. It depends how much food you feed with Ca:P less than 2 as to how much you might need to boost the calcium in the diet overall in these ways.  Another option is to feed seeds which have the correct ratio and good calcium content, or even higher than 2:1 for a boost effect. We are still looking into these seeds, but have recently found that many of them have high oxalic acid content which may counteract the calcium content. Cuttle bones are just calcium carbonate (same as most artifical supplements) in natural form, my degus have completely ignored them in the past, you can try it, but there wouldn't be a way to know how much calcium they have got from them.

So, a lot of that is theory, when we need to look at things in a more practical way...

Even if you manage to add in significant plant material, it could still take a while, so take a look at the new commercial food chart and lets try and work out what might be the best options available to you deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17365/commercial-food-chart The Ca:P of Degu Nature is low, so you could get an immediate improvement by switching to Versele Laga Degu Crispy instead. Ideally, you would pair this with something containing natural ingredients in their natural state, but I'm not sure there is anything available to you? Have you seen the addition of the Agrobs products at the bottom of the chart? Could you look for something like this, they are often aimed at tortoises?

While ever you are feeding at least, say 30% commercial food, you are unlikely to need to supplement vitamin D, because the amounts they add to the feeds are high. If you manage to reduce reliance on commercial food below this, or don't feed any at all, then you may wish to consider supplementing, and we think that providing a UV lamp may be the best way to do this as it provides an even supply.

Fresh veggies are OK, but don't add as much to the diet as wild type plants or leafier type veggies.

Oil seeds are generally thought to be better for treats than grains, they contain more trace elements, healthy oils, vitamins etc, they are a positive benefit to the diet, rather than just pure carbs with too much phosphorus that grains tend to be.


I think the key to all this is finding some sort of solution that fits with these ideas overall, the contains things that are available to you, and that you can persuade your degus to eat.

[yasmin]

Many thanks, moletteuk. I'm printing your response out and will take it home with me to read.

Most of my goos love fresh leaves so that's a good thing. The pet store foods I feed them are the only ones I have seen available to be purchased. I, however, will ask one of the pet stores that has been very helpful in getting product in for me if they can order in the Versele Laga Crispy. (I will also take a better look at the chart as well to see what other options I can pursue.)

My goos also love oil seeds so I can immediately start them on those as treats (have been very stingy in giving them these because of their perceived fattiness). I will also check the chart concerning this.

This is a great help, moletteuk. Gives me a way to start figuring this all out. Again, many thanks. Will keep this thread updated.

[yasmin]

Goal 1: to do the best to have their diet be made up of 45% grasses (read that wild degus' diet consists of 45% grasses; plus I read that the silicates in the grasses help with grinding down their teeth).

I now collect dandelions and grasses from our property (we don't use any pesticides/herbicides) and I feed this to them every evening. So far, a few of them get a dandelion flower and then I give a piece or two of the dandelion leaves to each degu (I just rip the leaves into 1-2 in. pieces) along with several long pieces of grass, many with grass seeds on them. Also, give them access to cat grass that is grown from a kit. I have to supervise their eating of this because some of them like to chew the packaging.

Also added to their regular commercial food diet: dried red clover blossoms, hay with dried flowers in it, and alfalfa hay (some added to their Timothy Hay once every four days– about 2 tablespoons per degu).

They love the grasses. A couple of the degus don't like the dandelion leaves. They love the clover blossoms and all love the alfalfa hay.

[moletteuk]

That all sounds positive I don't think you need to focus so much on grasses, although I'm not sure on the silicate content of other plants, it's ALWAYS good to have a variety, and they already get hay, so I think it would be good to add in other things. You are doing well if they all like the grasses. Once they get used to fresh things, you don't need to worry about the quantities so much, no need to limit or divide dandelion leaves into pieces for example.

Do you know what other things might be available to you? Have you seen this list? octodons.ch/index.php/Herbs Don't forget tree leaves too. Since you have a garden, you might like to think about growing some other things for them. It's possible to buy wild plant seeds in the UK, like from the Shelled Warrior ebay shop or a meadow mix from Galen's Garden in these links deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15794/internet-shops-specialist-degu-foods Maybe you could find something similar in Canada?

Are you feeling OK about the changes, and how are the degus finding it?

[saddlers]

I have found that ours prefer dandelion leaves when dried...a few will eat them fresh but they all go mad for them when they are dried.

Sorry to hijack your thread, but I have a large maple tree in my garden, and whilst it is on the safe list some maples are not entirely safe...so I have been trialling the leaves/branches with my lot gradually...and some of them love it...however I get worried about greenfly and eggs etc being on the leaves/bark. My instinct is to try and clean them somehow but I suspect not many degus in the wild are scrubbing their leaves before eating them....am I worrying over nothing...perhaps I should have started a new thread

[moletteuk]

I wouldn't worry about the odd bug, but on the other hand I wouldn't feed anything that was obviously infested with greenfly or similar. Sometimes they are just on the end leaves of the branch and you could break them off. Greenfly, blackfly etc tend to lead to fungal problems with the plant, and sticky poo residue, and you probably wouldn't want to stress the plant further by breaking bits off, and it's probably not that appetising for the degus, and you probably don't want the bugs infesting houseplants. I'm not sure exactly when the odd bug turns into an infestation though.

[yasmin]

I'm paranoid, so I soak anything I bring in from the property for the goos. I soak it for at least 15 minutes and then let it dry a bit.

My goos love fresh stuff. I have tried dried herbs, but they don't seem to care for them. (They especially all have no interest in dried thyme.)
I have found a site that lists safe North American leaves/grasses/herbs, so I am now going through that list, finding images of the plants on Google Images, and then checking the property for it. I tried green foxtail last night – they LOVE it. The list also notes plants that are probably not good for degus like ragweed.

Good to know that I don't need to divide the dandelion leaves up.

[yasmin]

Just an update: Taking Lilac to the vet next week. Her weight remains steady but she's begun to make the odd mouth movement – sort of stretching and yawing – so I've made the soonest appointment I could get with the vet. (He's on holiday this week so she'll be going in next Wednesday.) Just want him to check if more spurs have arisen. No drooling yet; seems to be eating everything as usual.

The goos are loving what I'm giving them from the property: clover leaves are their favourite. They also like dandelion leaves, grasses, grasses with seeds, white and purple clover flowers, wild daisy flowers, dandelion flowers, and grasses with the roots attached. I try and collect a variety of whatever looks good each day. It's alot of fun – gets me outside despite the ravenous mosquitoes and horse&deer flies. lol

[deguconvert]

UGH!! MOSQUITOES AND OTHER SUCH BITING CRITTERS!!! You brave, brave woman!!! I hate having to defend myself, flapping my arms to swat things away and basically looking like a frightful mental case to any onlookers. I hate wearing spray just as much, too. The smell of the stuff makes me feel ill.

Have you been using calcium powder for your degus?

I look forward to hearing how her teeth are fairing!

[yasmin]

No, haven't been using calcium powder. Was hoping that extra calcium via dandelion leaves and more frequent alfalfa hay feeding would suffice?

I will update this thread after Lilac's visit to the vet next week.

[yasmin]

Just got back from the vet. Lilac had only a very small, beginning spur developing on one side (her tongue was a bit red on that side) so the vet ground that down along with one side of a molar that was looking abrasive. She has actually gained weight from 11 weeks ago. The vet advised that I keep an eye on her and bring her back in three months. Things are looking good so far for her. Perhaps the extra fresh grasses, greens, etc. and extra calcium via dandelion leaves and alfalfa are helping. Hope it's helping my other 14 as well.

[yasmin]

Since returning from the vet, Lilac hasn't been eating. Last night she couldn't even eat a piece of puffed rice.
This morning, she ate two pieces of puffed rice very slowly but wouldn't eat anymore. Also tempted her with a pea, which she nibbled a bit and then dropped.
She is puffed up – definitely in some sort of pain/discomfort.

Am tempted to call the vet to get painkillers but might wait until tomorrow and see if she'll be better when I get home tonight. If not, I will ask the vet for painkillers for her tomorrow.

Any thoughts?

[moletteuk]

I'm a bit surprised she is in so much pain from the relatively minor dental work, but really you are the expert on dental recovery times! If it puts your mind at rest call in and get the metacam, it shouldn't be expensive, at least it isn't here, and it keeps in the fridge so you never know when it might come in handy anyway.

The natural calcium supplementing versus the powder is entirely up to you. Maybe up the alfalfa a bit if you are still feeding two tbsp every 4 days, I have a feeling they may self regulate the alfalfa intake. Did you add in some high calcium seeds?

Here's some more info on Ca P for grasses and hays, don't know if you've seen them:
www.guinealynx.info/hay_calcium.html
www.guinealynx.info/hay_ratios_calcium.html
www.guinealynx.info/hay_ratio.html

The bigger the range of plants you can find for them the better, just keep your eye open for possibilities and then look them up.

Do you have access to any horse type grass products that would help you through the winter? We have Readi-grass and Just-Grass and Graze-on etc. The think to check for is that there is nothing added like molasses. Or you might find something similar in 'cob' form (nuggets).

[yasmin]

Spoke to the vet about Lilac. He doesn't think she should be in pain because the procedure was very minor. He thinks that the problem more likely is that she still hasn't recovered completely from the anaesthetic.
She was completely out when I drove her home yesterday – so out that at one point I stopped the car and shook the cage to see if she was alive. (She did move a bit.) At home, she came around but was moving slowly. She also seemed to be having a problem gripping the food I was giving her. I'm worried. She was only given a bit of gas and, last time, she had no trouble with it.

The vet said that I should syringe feed her baby food or moistened pellets. If she isn't better by tomorrow morning, I'm to call in.

Thanks for the info on the grasses and hays, moletteuk. I will check out those links. I will also find out what seeds are high in calcium and try those. I haven't looked into horse type grass products but I should be able to find a source considering that we now live out in the country. I also have read of someone who was able to grow dandelions indoors during the winter so I plan to do that. Also the grocery stores here sell dandelion leaves all year around.

[yasmin]

Lilac's close to back to normal today (whew!). She's no longer puffed up, is gripping her food as normal, and is eating soft vegetation (fresh clover leaves) and her favourite foods. Still not touching the pelleted foods, but expect she'll be back to that soon. So relieved.

[moletteuk]

Oh that's great, what a relief!

Funny how she handled the anaesthetic so well the first time, but not this time, maybe you could get the vet to check if they did anything different if she needs to go in again? Or maybe there is something they could give her to help her recover if there is a next time?

Can you get carrot tops from the grocery store too? They are a good staple feed too.

[yasmin]

Carrot tops are now a staple in my degus' greens diet. And the carrot part – and the tops as well – are great for my budgies too.

I have continued the greens in their diet and am pleased to report that to date – 8 months after the first trimming – Lilac is still doing well – still eating hard food.

However, just want to add this to this thread in case anyone comes across it: Sean (age 4) had to have spurs removed from his teeth last month. His spurs are like Azure's – growing towards his tongue. (Maybe he is Azure's son?)

[anita]

Jul 25, 2013 3:23:48 GMT deguconvert said:

UGH!! MOSQUITOES AND OTHER SUCH BITING CRITTERS!!! You brave, brave woman!!! I hate having to defend myself, flapping my arms to swat things away and basically looking like a frightful mental case to any onlookers. I hate wearing spray just as much, too. The smell of the stuff makes me feel ill.

Have you been using calcium powder for your degus?

I look forward to hearing how her teeth are fairing!

rub fresh basil on your exposed skin keeps them mossies away!

[yasmin]

Interesting. Will try that.