Mocha and Latte: is there any hope?

[bart]

I've posted before, so some of you know I've had Mocha and Latte since Jan 2009 and they got on fine for 9 months but then I came back from work to find Mocha with part of his ear and the end of his tail missing and I had to separate them.

Since then, they've each had a 36"x18"x24" cage (one of the P@H ones). I've painstakingly reintroduced them several times and they've got on fine each time for anything from a few days to 3 weeks but then I would come home from work one day to find Mocha cowering in the corner with an injury, so I've had to separate them for a while and then start the process of getting them back together.

This time they've been together for a month with no sign of any problems until this evening when I actually got to see things kick off. Latte is a little bigger than Mocha and was trying to sniff his genitals. Mocha thought this was OK initially but then got a bit annoyed and some squeaking followed, then Latte chased Mocha around the cage, then there was a stand-off with chattering, then Latte chased Mocha and then there was a fight with lots of noise and some fur being ripped out. I put my hand in the cage (wearing a glove) to stop this and awaited developments.

Things were fine after a few minutes (they even ran side-by-side on the wheel) and there was some polite grooming around the face and neck, but then Latte started sniffing under Mocha's tail again and Mocha got agitated. They sat next to each other for a couple of minutes (during which time Latte yawned), then Latte was at it again, this time there was more chasing and another stand-off. I enticed them out for some oats (one on each hand) to distract them and then they went back in the cage but the same thing happened and they fought. Mocha climbed out onto my lap, squeaking. I calmed him down and he voluntarily climbed back into the cage a few minutes later.

More friendly grooming, more sniffing, chase, fight, Mocha climbed out. Latte then started walking around the shelves of the cage on his haunches (presumably laying his scent), then came to the door. I held Mocha up to the door and he ran away back onto my lap so they are now in separate cages. Mocha is in the cage they were both in, while Latte is in the much sparser cage. They're squeaking at each other through the bars.

Has anyone else seen this sort of behaviour? Since it looks a bit sexual is neutering the only option? I've wanted to avoid it but I fear I'm out of options.

[bart]

They made a pretty impressive nest in the corner of the cage and I try to disrupt that as little as possible when I clean the cage so it's familiar when they go back in.

I think they both know I'm the boss. They have separate food bowls and if one finishes first he'll try to sneak over and take food from the other one, which leads to some squabbling (but no proper fighting); however, they'll let me take food from their bowls without being aggressive towards me.

Do you suggest I put Latte back in the cage with Mocha tomorrow after I feed them and see what happens? And if they fight again should I wait until they calm down and try again? Is there some sort of negative reinforcement I can try out on Latte? I don't think he understands "Bad degu!"

[bart]

I'm pretty certain they're both boys. It's always been quite hard to get them to be still long enough for a detailed inspection and accurately estimate the distance between the anus and genitals but they look the same. Also, when they were younger Mocha did his fair share of humping Latte, which I assume is a male trait.

The other thing that's been going on is that when they're grooming each other Latte will approach Mocha from the side and put his front paws on Mocha's back (my avatar shows them in this position, although in my avatar it's Mocha who's on top, which is how they usually sleep). Mocha immediately raises his backside in the air to push Latte off.

Mocha's spent much of the morning on the shelf nearest Latte's cage squawking rather pathetically towards him. It's heartbreaking really. Latte is ignoring Mocha. I'll try covering Latte's cage but I find it very difficult to be mean because they're just sooo cute.

[bart]

Well, embarrassingly I've checked again and I'm now certain they're both girls. I've put them on a wooden ladder and held them above my head so it's easier to see; previously I've had to hold them while they've been squirming about. Neither has anything like the separation between anus and genitals suggested by the degutopia sexing guide. I'd obviously quite like to see a real live male to make sure but they look identical down there to me.

[bart]

I live alone (and didn't fancy inviting the neighbours in for some degu pornography... also there's no way either of them would have been still with a strange person in the room) so I had to hold a degu in one hand and the camera in the other, hence the photos aren't ideal. Degu 2 is not quite as tame so I struggled to get a decent picture. The rear paws may do for scale but I can try again tomorrow -- I got a love nip to tell me (s)he'd had enough handling for one day.



Degu 1: female (I think).



Degu 2: not so sure now.

Your expertise is most welcome, thanks!

[kovu07]

Well they both look the same, I would say they are both female.

[Bexi87]

The first is def a girl, I'd hazard a guess that number 2 is also a girl as I can't see a gap..

[deguconvert]

Female! Totally!

[deguconvert]

But that still doesn't solve your dilema of how to get them together and happy forever!! Females, more than males, tend to be easier to get into a group for lots of love. I wonder if adding in a third would help them to blend in a more balanced way. This is just a thought, and there are lots of things to weigh with it. What if none of the three like each other? What if only two get along? What if each of them love the little one, but still hate each other . . . who gets to have the little one to live with? If the last senario happens, do you get a fourth in the hope that if would bond with one of them as well? So . . . there are lots of potentials, but knowing about them means you can decide if you want to give it a try. Let us know, or ask more questions, or whatever, we're here to offer advice and encouragement.

[bart]

Degu 1 is Mocha, 2 is Latte. Here's a slightly better picture of Latte's bits which looks more like a girl.



I assume the mating bark is like corked wine -- I'd know it if I'd heard it. Latte sometimes makes noises that could be described as like barking but these seem to happen when she's scared.

I've been thinking about building my own cage as I have the space and they don't get a huge amount of exercise outside the cage because I'm worried about them chewing things they're not supposed to, so 20 minutes in the ball each day and sometimes a semi-supervised wander about the living room. So maybe I'll do that and make sure I can divide it.

I've tried putting them together in neutral territory (they have a large plastic digging box) but it's a case of sniff, squeak, fight. I want to make sure they remember each other though as I don't want to have to go through the full re-introduction process.

[kovu07]

Latte is definately a girl.

[beckie]

How are you getting on with your girlies? I had to laugh when I scrolled down your post, little did I realise the next sight I would see was a big, very clear photo of girlie bits!!! Lol xx I wasn't expecting it and there it was.

I hope you manage to get them all to love each other, it's so much nicer to see them all piled on top of each other when they go sleep - soooo cute xx I'm sure my girls never get a good sleep because they spend the whole time swapping who's on top!! It's like a degu game of 1 potato 2 potato 3 potato more!!! Does anyone remember playing that at school? Lol xx good luck xx

[bart]

OK, so we've deduced that they're both definitely girls (thanks everyone!). They're really sad apart; Mocha has been very lethargic and sits on the shelf nearest Latte's cage, sleeping and making noises like the Clangers (if any of you are old enough to remember them) which I haven't heard before. Latte makes more usual squeaks and tries to eat through the bars. I'll give them some more supervised playtime together but it doesn't usually last more than a minute before there's sniffing and an aggressive standoff and I feel the need to separate them before they fight.

[bart]

So I've been swapping Mocha and Latte between cages and they've been quite well-behaved so I thought I'd give them a run together in the hallway, which is neutral territory -- neither has been there except in the ball for months. Initially, they ran around exploring and largely ignoring each other, but then Latte started chasing Mocha. After a minute of this, Mocha stopped and Latte sniffed Mocha's genitals and tried to mount her. Previously, this has led to some annoyed squeaking and eventually a fight if Latte doesn't stop, but this time Mocha just squeaked, sprinted down the hall and hid behind my rucksack where she stayed for a good 10 minutes until I realised she wasn't coming out. So I put Latte back in her cage and then had to wait even longer until Mocha had calmed down enough to let me approach her as she was absolutely terrified of any movement I made.

Back in their separate cages, they were happily chatting to each other after a few minutes so I don't really understand what's going on here. Mocha doesn't seem prepared to fight for top degu status but won't accept being bottom degu either.

[deguconvert]

Hmmm! I'm shaking my head, as I don't know what to suggest for you at this point. How frequently do you have an introduction time between them . . . face to face that is?