is my 'male' degu actually a pregnant female?

[robyn]

i have had two supposedly male degus for two years, and recently one has become extremely fat even though there has been no change in his diet, just fresh hay and water, small amount of degu pellets and the occasional treat like porridge oats or a sunflower seed. I know that its possible that he could have diabetes but im confident im feeding him correctly and he does not show any other symptoms like drinking lots of water and generally does not seem unwell. i am wondering if its possible for them to have lived together for so long and never had pups before? also i have looked at info about how to determine the sex of a degu and they seem to me to both be male but im no expert! just very worried as after cutting down his food and feeding him separatly from his cagemate he is gaining even more weight, he weighs over 350 grams now! any ideas or suggestions on what to do with him please

[smux]

I'm not here, but anyway...

...Dante and Elsevier were the same when they arrived at my door a few months ago. Elsevier was a lot smaller than Dante. Dante's lost a little weight now and Elsevier's gained a little so they're the same...I didn't do anything special to make this change, it just happened...so it may be your female worry is unfounded...however, post a picture of both their lower regions here and people will give you their opinions on the two of them...get as close as you can (I feel like Hugh Hefner every time I talk about this, I don't know why!) as it can be difficult to tell them apart as I'm sure you're aware.

Diabetes would almost always show more than one symptom, and I don't think this is diabetes...you know his diet and how much sugar he might be taking in, has there ever been times where one gets hold of something sugary that the other doesn't? If not, it's unlikely one would be diabetic and the other not (not impossible, of course)

If you want to get his weight down, cut down to a maximum of one or two sunflower seeds a day and as for treats like porridge oats/puffed wheat/puffed rice bring up the amount of those you give to compensate for it. If you haven't been giving him that many anyway, I wouldn't worry as I feed mine more than that and as long as they get regular exercise (like a good wheel in the cage) then they'll burn off any fat they build up from the seeds.

As for being a pregnant female, it's not likely given that you've had them two years and this has been the first time you've considered it. Possible, but very unlikely. It would be possible if "he" is the dominant one in the relationship and has had no interest in mating...if the submissive male then tried to mate, the dominant female wouldn't let him...so, if fatty's dominant, it's possible :-)
If you want to be on the safe side, read and understand the guide in the breeding and baby section of the forum just in case he is a she and she gives birth.

Do you feed them fresh vegetables on a regular basis? It is possible that he could be suffering from bloat if so (although I think you'd know, it's more than just bloated look) and if you don't then maybe you should start them both on a healthy salad on a daily basis...nothing too spectacular, just a bit of lettuce/cabbage, some carrot slices, maybe a few small bits of tomato or even cherry tomatoes (rare treat; being fruits technically, they do contain a slightly larger than normal amount of sugar for veg...although nothing to really worry about) plus maybe some string beans or peas (in a pod, preferably) and once he's eating a bit healthier (although degu nuggets alone are fine...it's just good to eat fresh food...more vitamins)

[robyn]

thanks for the advice, i have tried to take pictures to compare but they keep coming up blurry, i will keep trying though. They actually dont get many fresh vegetables as there is so much conflicting information and ive never been to sure what to give them, will try that though. i havent heard of bloat before but he does seem otherwise healthy and as you said youd expect other symptoms. Snack(the fat one) is the dominant one of the pair and Theodore is very submissive and docile so i guess il just have to wait and see if and pups come along!

[deguconvert]

Do you have another person around that can help to take pictures of their bits? If one of you can hold the degu and the other click away? Of course, maybe that has been your method already. They aren't the easiest little luvs to hold still are they?

I feel opposite to Smux on this one. It is possible that you have both sexes and have been pup free all this time. This is actually something that happened to a forum member right after I first joined. They had the degus for two years and suddenly, POOF, fat degu. Then within days, POOF POOF!! They found a litter of pups in the cage. It is a LOT less common than are those instances where pups come in short order, but it does happen. You might try feeling along his/her sides to see if you can feel little bumps that would indicate that teets are beginning to show.

[robyn]

since i noticed the massive weight gain i have been trying to take a pic with my boyfriends help but no luck as with the flash on i just get too much light and without its too dark and you cant really see. it takes so long to get them to be still that by the time ive looked at one i forget what the other looked like! the weight gain was an almost instant thing, one day normal and then in no time he looks like a brown tennis ball with a head! when i actually try to get a grip on him to look he makes some weird noises like hes in pain but i know this would not normally hurt him! i also read that if he is pregnant it is a bad idea to touch his tummy too much as that can actually harm the babies! cant seem to find any teets! wouldnt mind too much if he has some pups but worried about having to separate them as they are extremely close, if he has been fat for about a week or two now do you know roughly how long it would be until the babies would come?

[deguconvert]

Well . . . it is usually during the last month of gestation that they begin to balloon, gestation being 90 days. Some show earlier than others, almost 4 weeks early. Others it is in the last two weeks. So, I would say that you are likely any day now and up to two weeks away from delivery if you do indeed have a pregnant female.

If I were you, I would stop trying to hold her. There are injuries that can happen to the pups, but also to the mother. Holding her can cause tears, or even a rupture of her uterous, which would be fatal to both her and her pups. Just leave her be. Although . . . another thought is to encourage him/her and his cage mate into a travel case, if possible without picking up, and take them to a vet to be looked at. There have been a couple of cases on the forum of females being unable to deliver, which eventually results in her death because of becoming toxic/septic due to the dead pups still inside.

[robyn]

i will defintely consider the vet soon if there are no developments but my local vet is the pets at home vet and whilst she is lovely and is quite open about the fact that she doesnt know a great deal about degus but does her best for them i do feel that its a little bit of a waste of money! ive been unable to find a good exotic animal vet local!

i think your right about leaving snack (unsure whether to call it he or she anymore lol) alone, he is becoming reluctant to come out of the cage and will only come for his favourite treats. I have had one more go at taking pictures but im not sure if they are very helpful. took a few pics of snack in which im sure he is a boy and then some in which he seems to be a girly. And ive got exactly the same results with theodore's pics aswell.

Here are the clearest pics and hopefully your more experienced eyes will be able to tell despite my rubbish photography!

So this is Theo and i can definately see the gap


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and this is Snack, and i think i see a gap here aswell only he doesnt look like theodore!



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[deguconvert]

Hmmm!! Snack does kind of look both ways, doesn't he/she? Theo is decidedly male, with a nicely defined gap in between. Snack however leaves it a little doubtful. If I were to follow my inclination, I would still say male . . . but that doesn't explain the sudden weight gain. And there is just enough question suggested by the appearance of his bits that he could be a male with somewhat close bits, or a female with somewhat distant bits. So one thing that I can suggest is to very gently feel along the sides of Snack to see if you can feel bumps that are firm and suggestive of pups inside. That other thing is that if you wait for two months and there is no sign of pups, and the size of Snack remains constant, then you definitely have a MALE . . . that is fluffy. I would suggest at that time, should this be the result, that you put him on a slight diet, mainly just not giving him any fatty treats such as seeds and nuts. See if that won't help his weight to go back down, and weigh him every two or three days to be sure. Once you have him under 300 grams, maybe closer to 275 grams, then you can start letting him have treats again.

Weight gain is not a symptom of diabetes, but it can lead to it beginning. Thankfully, you are not observing a dramatic loss of weight, which is more concerning as it tends to be a more aggressive condition that is causing it.

[robyn]

ok, i had a feeling you would say that, he definately looks somewhere inbetween lol. would you suggest leaving their food normal for the time being then incase he is a she? and then only reduce it after the two months? i have been trying to feel for any teets or bumps along his side and belly but i just dont have a clue! thankyou for taking a look though, at least i know that its not just me thats confused by him

[deguconvert]

Yeah, I would keep the feeding as per usual. That means that at least you and I are uncertain, so . . . YOU ARE NOT ALONE. LOL!! He just likes to keep us guessing. I wonder what others will think?

[robyn]

i put the same pics up the photo section but i dont think anyones answered! although i think he's an anomoly and unsexable it would still be good to get as many opinions as possible, perhaps theres someone else out there with another degu like snack lol

[smux]

(still not here, but as I posted in this thread I thought I'd continue it :-))

Looking at the pics, I am inclined to agree with DCs disagreement of what I said...they do look to me like a male and a female. Pictures aren't great but we don't need pixel perfect to see the two important parts and the skin between to tell the distance :-)
You also did what I was going to suggest, using the sunlight as natural lighting...whenever I have wanted to take a pic without the flash, sunlight has always been of great help.

Anyway, on to Ms SnackMan (Ms PacMan...see what I did? :-))...run your finger along the side of her belly (like DC suggested, but not to feel for pups...trust me, I felt nothing that suggested pups in my Theresa up until the day she dropped her bundles (who are still doing great, BTW, just past their 6th week...still in with Theresa, but they seem to like it and she's doing fine)...but instead to look for nipple growth (they're like little black flaps of skin, my best explanation...about 4mm in length maximum and with a lighter tip. The above pics are too blurry for me to spot any, but if you can hold Snack like you are there but from behind and have a look about a cm (from his/her middle) to the left and the right and you may see some less hairy spots and underneath the hair (if there is any over it) you will see the nipples (if Theresa will let me, I will take a picture and post it later, hopefully that will help you...and that's if the nipples are even visible any more, she's probably going to start losing them now the babies are older and not feeding from her). You can also run your fingers against the hair to lift it up for a proper look under. If you find nipples, you're probably in the final few weeks of her pregnancy, I didn't notice Theresa's until a day or so before...so if you find nipples, it's time to prepare for it...you'll have to split the cage a little until Theo shows no sign of interest in Snack for sexual reasons (won't be easy, you'll probably have to supervise him with her then grab him if he goes for a humping...if he shows no interest for an hour or so, he's *probably* safe to leave with her, but that's up to you) and you'll need to babyproof it as best you can. There's posts in the forum about that.

Now, onto Snack's sexual ambiguity...you say Snack is overweight, what happens to parts of the body on an overweight person? They stretch, don't they? :-P
I'm inclined to believe that Snack's a female based on that picture.

Also you mention that Snack is the dominant one. If you're the observant kind (hell, with some degus, you could be blind and still get to see it, sometimes :-)) you will probably have noticed him performing certain "acts" upon himself. It looks like cleaning, but the head is moving up and down at a constant pace. If you have ever seen Snack doing this, you've got proof he's a guy. Also (getting back to the dominant stuff, as that isn't directly dominance related) when Snack dominates Theo, have you ever seen Snack "dry humping" Theo and have you ever noticed him being aroused "down there"? If Snack was a male, you definitely would have...and dry-humping would end with the previous "acts" I mentioned above rather than just getting off and going on with whatever they were doing. These are proof of his maleness, but absence of these are not proof of her femaleness, although good pointers to suggest it is so.

[robyn]

snack has been the smaller degu of the two for all the time we have had him! i have been reading every pregnancy/ baby related page on this forum and the rest of the internet and i read at one point that the female is often smaller than the male! is this something you have noticed? i have weighed theodore and he is 240grams at the moment! so i am less worried about him now i think he just looked tiny in comparison to snack although he could definately do with gaining a little weight! the problem i am having at the moment is that there seems to be little info about pregnancy signs anywhere and i am really anxious to know for definite! i am fairly sure now but as i have always assumed he was a boy it is very hard to accept that he is pregnant when there is no definitive evidence!
did you find that theresa drank a lot more water when she was expecting? i have noticed this and also that she/he is urinating a lot, i let her out for a few minutes onto the table their cage is on and she weed on it twice!
i have seen a slight increase in nesting behaviour and have boarded up the lower half of the cage with cardboard just in case as there are days when they will be alone for long periods of time! he also eats extra hay and i have taken your earlier advice in giving some fresh veggies!
i have found snack is still most of the time now, not very active at all and for that reason i have lowered all the levels in the cage to hopefully make it safer for her as she is increasingly clumsy!
she is also quite irritable with theodore but unusually affectionate towards me (usually i belong to theo and the boyfriend belongs to snack)
do any of these things sound familiar to you?, and are there any other things you noticed while your theresa was pregnant?
as for the nipples i havent found any! but i am being cautious about touching her as i feel very guilty about poking and prodding her for the last few weeks before i realised that i ought not to! i actually think that in the picture of snack that i posted you can see how rounded the tummy is, but i dont know if thats just me!
the plan for if there are any babies on the way is to move theodore into a small cage that we have, if im honest it is not really suitable for an adult degu but its the best i can do right now! he will go back in after a few days, hopefully avoiding the whole post-partem oestrus thing! and he will stay there untill babies are weaned. then i would build one of the cabinet type cages that ive seen on here!
does this sound ok? sorry for the long post i just know that you have experienced a very similar situation!

[smux]

The male will need to go in with the female at some point (if Snack is indeed female) once the babies are born, mostly to help her with looking after them. I spent a lot of time getting Theresa out of the cage and giving her attention and some free time for the first week or so as every time I was putting one of the males in with her they were trying to repeat the process and I don't want her having more babies yet, if at all.
Yes, I think she did drink a lot of water, but it was fairly hot around that time still so I didn't think anything of it. She isn't any smaller than the others, I don't think, but I do give them all lots of treats (regular sunflower seeds and the odd half a peanut every so often plus other more healthy treats) so they might just be big. I only do this as they're all growing degus, and Theresa because she was feeding 3 babies plus herself so I felt she needed the extra fat in her body for the milk...once they're all past the 1 year stage, I'll probably cut back on the treats :-)
I say Theresa isn't any smaller than the boys, but I have 3 other females in one cage who are definitely smaller than the two boys in another...both groups are over a year old (so adults), while Theresa and the 3 boys are 9 months old...so generally speaking I would agree that females are, however up until a little while ago Elsevier (one of the two boys) was a lot smaller than Dante (the other one) although they've evened up now a little since I got them and it's harder to tell them apart (point being size isn't proof enough :-)).

Theo's weight of 240 is fine, 250-300 is average, I would only worry if it was in the low 200s...just give him an extra half a peanut every so often (once a week?) and perhaps let them both have a few sunflower seeds a day...although I would base the amount you give on the amount of exercise they get through (if they have a wheel or if they get time out, for instance...the more exercise they do, the more fatty foods you can give them as it'll all be burnt off by the exercise). Also, if his weight is 240 on average all the time then this is just his normal weight and he's generally smaller than most degus on average :-)

The fact that Snack's urinating a lot more is linked directly to the fact that he's drinking a lot more, so the two should be considered one symptom.

There's little information about pregnancy signs for degus for a good reason...there's few pregnancy signs :-)
Theresa was running about, climbing and jumping all the time right up to the day she gave birth, she'd even had a few "accidents" (nothing major, just the clumsiness you mentioned probably) and got up and carried on with what she was doing. Don't forget though, my Theresa is 9 months old, yours are 2 years old...mine's still in puberty, she hasn't reached adulthood, she'll be very active no matter what. Lethargy is a fairly good sign of pregnancy and happens in the later stages (but again isn't a definite sign) so if she is then it'll be happening soon.

Put some toilet tissue in the cage and they'll use it to make the house comfortable for if the babies are born while in that cage.

Don't worry at all about handling her (I'll say her from now on, make it easier) as if she trusts you then she'll not worry, and if you think she might be pregnant you'll be very gentle with her...it's not like you're going to squeeze her stomach or anything, there should be no need to prod or poke to do any checking for signs of pregnancy. It should be no different to giving Snack a stroke or a tickle. Also, the nipples (in my opinion anyway) are in very weird places...they're not directly under the body, they're on the sides (I think it's for easier access...not right on the side but between the side and below). My Theresa has her nipples still so I got a picture of one (attached...sorry for the quality being as bad as yours, phone cameras don't do close-up very well...I have a better camera but no memory card for it, I will try to get a better pic later) to show you what you're looking for. The only important thing to remember when handling a pregnant degu is the same thing for when handling any animal that is unpredictable...confidence...make sure you're confident in whatever you do as she can sense this, if you don't feel confident handling her then it's probably best you keep it to a minimum :-)

Theresa's mood was definitely different once she'd had the babies, but her mood was different for many months before that too (so the difference after might be her going back to normal), she was the most dominant one before but now she doesn't seem to be so interested in being the top degu. I'm not so sure about her affection because she's always been close to me and the flatmate, there's not been anything different there to notice.

Keep Theo in the cage with her until the babies are born (only separate them if you are going to be away more than a day, if you feel you need to and don't trust Theo...I think others here might recommend you definitely move him, but you know them best of all), then you can decide either to move Theo out or move Snack and the babies into the new cage (and help with getting it ready for babies)...remember that if Snack trusts you then there will be no problems with you handling the babies at all, but also remember that the babies can not regulate their own body temperature at first so you need to keep them warm (your hand warmth should be enough while moving them around, a warm house generally doesn't make it a problem).

The attached picture...I've moved the hair away around it to show it, and its basically a black piece of skin with no hair directly around it, although the hair on her body is covering it normally. To find it, I held her on her back and just ran my finger up her fur on the side against the grain (all animals hate this normally, just don't do it roughly and she won't mind as long as you tidy her up afterwards :-)) until I saw something black on the skin. This is a DEFINITE sign that she is a female and she is pregnant and I think that she is due within the next few weeks. If you need a better quality picture, I can probably manage it with the better camera, but personally I don't think you will...it's not a great picture, but if you look at it zoomed out it is fairly clear and recognisable :-)

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[robyn]

The picture is great, i can see what you are describing clear enough even if its a bit blurry, thanks for taking the time to do it.
I tried the glass bowl trick today to check for nipples on snack! i couldnt see any, also tried to put her on her back to look properly but she wasnt having any of it! so although i dont think there are any there i am not 100% do you mean that when the nipples appear there is usually no fur covering them? so if i put her in the bowl and look from underneath should i be able to see them? or do i need to be parting the fur to be able to see them? i did try both but as we have no idea of what the due date might be it may be too early to see them! also i think i read somewhere that they are not always visible but im nt sure if this means that they do not always appear until the last few days or that on some degus they are just not visibe at all although they are there?
i removed their wheel a few days ago because i felt it may not be safe (they have a flying saucer wheel in their cage and a normal one in their playpen) do you think this was a bad idea? she didnt seem to be using it in the cage but when i let them out for a run today i gave it back and she used it alot (a bit slower then usual and a bit clumsy though) would she benefit from having it do you think?
also is it usual for mixed sex pairs to fight? as snack is the dominant one she was fighting theo for the right to use the wheel today and for first pick of the hay i put in the play pen! i just thought it was odd that theo would fight with her if he knows shes pregnant but it is not violent fighting just the usual wrestling. maybe im just thinking this is odd because obviously a man fighting with a prenant woman is a horrifying thought, its not necessarily the same for degus i just wondered! not sure if thats a silly question lol (she won though, every time )

thankyou to you and deguconvert for all the advice and info you are giving me, i hope im not being annoying, its really great to have someone to ask this stuff so i can do the best i can for snack!

[robyn]

just took this and i thought i would show you, he does look like a ball lol


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[Jaiye]

Its almost as if the guy behind is thinking "If those bars weren't there you would so be on the floor for taking up so much space!"

[smux]

More like the guy behind is thinking "Hey, you two, move, I can't see the camera! Oh, sorry, it's just you, Snack!"

Yeah, I would say Snack is almost definitely female and pregnant looking at that picture...you were probably right to remove the flying saucer but I would put it back once the babies are born so she can get the exercise she likes. It could also go in the playpen for supervised playing...not that she needs that much exercise, looks like she gets plenty just moving around :-P

As for nipples being visible, I think they would have meant as I said before...that they're not visible until closer to the birth. They're also not DIRECTLY covered by fur (so there's a patch of baldness around the nipple) but the fur around the bald patch usually does the job of covering it up to keep her warm when they're not being used by babies. Parting the fur (with her on her back if she'll let you, or with her standing up and you holding her from behind under the arms which might be easier) is the best option because of the covering fur, but you might get lucky with the glass bowl and see one if she goes up against one of the edges (as they're around the side). All this said, if you concentrate hard enough you will be able to feel the nipple through the fur as you run your fingers over her...put a finger under her front leg from behind so the tip of your finger is where her armpit would be, and move your finger down her side keeping it at about the same place all the way to her back leg. Try this a few times but varying where your finger goes, you might feel a little bump and it shouldn't affect the babies inside (you're only stroking her with a finger, not pushing or feeling for anything inside)...this can be done on either side, if the nipples are there yet she'll have them on both sides.

If it's playfighting they're doing, I wouldn't worry too much...you could put two piles of hay in next time though so they both have some to go to. It isn't normal for mixed sex degus to fight if the female is pregnant, because the male knows he'll get ripped to shreds if he so much as touches her as she's extra defensive during that time, but playfighting (accompanied by chittering) is normal, she still wants to have fun :-)

If you want to keep trying the look with her on her back, hold her firmly as she squirms and use both hands to ensure her safety...if possible do it on a bed or something so she is lying on it and you are holding her in position, and feel free to have someone help you so you are free to take a proper look...also talk to her in calm tones so she knows all is okay, the words you say and how you say them will make a great deal of difference. I have said on many occasions that it is important to get your degus used to the dominance hold so they know who the boss is, it's at times like these when it is useful...not just when they're behaving badly :-)

[deguconvert]

If I may say, I think I would give up on the attempts to put her on her back at this point. If she is pregnant, the stress of being handled that way could be harmful to her, not to mention the question of whether or not it could change her relationship with you. If babies are coming and do appear, it will be quite safe at that point to flip her over on her back. My main concern is for her safety and the potential babies. Pups take up such a massive amount of space inside a degu that the risk of rupturing her uterus is fairly high. I might be being overly cautious, I know, but I do feel that it might be best to avoid that method for the time being.