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Post by fred on Oct 8, 2011 19:15:50 GMT
Since you have a late fall, I would concentrate on collecting as much as possible before thinking about buying anything. That's what we will hopefully do here next year. We just got the natural nutrition project started a little too late in this year.
Degu owners in Germany have been collecting and feeding for much longer and it is interesting to see how numerous plant species have gone from the suspicious or even toxic lists to the safe to feed list over the years. The pioneer in this has been our Swiss member davx and he may have more to say about some of the plants you are interested in.
In general it should be a reasonable assumption that all species in one genus are similar with respect to toxicity. However, there will be exceptions, and the maples are an example for this. Several European Acer species are suitable for degus whereas Acer rubrum and some North American species are considered toxic. In these cases, high toxicity has been shown in some other animals. Personally I consider a genus safe if some species have been shown to be safe for degus and no species have been found toxic for any animals (Google, Google Scholar and Medline searches). As a botanist you can decide whether you find that a reasonable line to follow. In all cases it is always advised to introduce any new food slowly.
As far as the plants you mentioned are concerned:
Birch is excellent, also in large amounts. Oaks (Qercus spp.) are fine, since degus are better with tannins than many other rodents. Cottonwood (Cornus spp.) is considered toxic in Germany Butternut Juglans cinerea and black walnut Juglans nigra contain a substance known as juglone which are toxic to other plants nearby. As wood shavings they are also toxic for horses, but I didn't find anything that would suggest they might be toxic to degus. Perhaps better approached with caution? The situation with the European ash Fraxinus excelsior is unclear, no information about North American members of the genus. Willow species (Salix spp.) are considered safe in Germany. No information about the tulip trees (Liriodendron gigantea and L. tulipifera). Of how much interest are they? Hibiscus, marigolds and mints all aerial parts fine Dandelion is great, all parts, including roots fine Some oxalis species were considered problematic but the genus is increasingly thought of as suitable in Germany. O. Stricta is well liked by degus there and O.carnosa by degus in their natural habitat. If you are interested in a particular species, I can have a close look at that.
Hope this give you something to do over weekend. Don't hesitate to ask about any other plants.
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Post by winic1 on Oct 8, 2011 21:59:52 GMT
The Oxalis we have is Yellow Wood Sorrel, Oxalis europaea or O. stricta, looking at online pictures on my state wildflower site. Grows all over the place here
I see that what we call Nasturtiums, plant genus Tropaeolum, are often labeled marigolds in the dried flower mixes. What we call Marigolds are Tagetes species. I have a ton of those right out on my porch.
Mentioned the tuip tree because I have a huge one on the edge of my front yard, and smaller ones all around, they grow from the seeds like weeds. Fairly common where I live.
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Post by winic1 on Oct 9, 2011 12:17:37 GMT
Aarrggghh!!!! Now I see a hay mixed with "marigolds", and they're talking about a Calendula sp., also known as "pot marigold". It's so confusing.....
ordered the huge bag of parakeet seed last night as well as bags & bales of the various bedding we need (on sale and free shipping, poor delivery guy), and they had the hay + carrots and the hay + "marigold" on sale 2 for 1, which made it reasonable, so it's on its way here as well. Normally, with degus and guinea pigs, we buy the timothy hay in 6 pound bags, much cheaper, and the guinea pigs really go through a lot.
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Post by fred on Oct 9, 2011 14:06:58 GMT
Tropaeolum majus is fine and I would assume the same for other members of the genus. Oxalis stricta / europaea is fine. Calendula officinalis is fine. For Tagetes I only found a recent post by davx on deguforum.de that he has offered it to his degus but that it wasn't very popular with them. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to offer my girls a leaf of the tulip tree and see whether they like it in the first instance. It is considered non-toxic to dogs, cats, and horses ( www.aspca.org/Pet-care/poison-control/Plants/tulip-poplar.aspx )
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madhoose
Foraging Degu
Pumpkin & Pipsqueak...
Posts: 85
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Post by madhoose on Oct 10, 2011 13:20:07 GMT
Hi all, i was on here looking for some ideas on what i could feed my fussy goos as i hate just putting p@h nuggets and hay in for them to eat.. Anyhoo two cups of coffee and eight pages later i've got the buzz this is totally brilliant just what i've been looking to do but not knowing where to start and scared i get it wrong well not anymore, there is just so much tried and tested information i'm overwhelmed, so i'm just about to start printing out lists so i can get started.. ;D I do have a question though.. does anybody know if parsnip sliced and dried is ok for them as it's a root veg or even parsnip leaf..??
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Post by smithomatic on Oct 10, 2011 20:23:13 GMT
dried parsnip is fine I use it as part of my natural mix
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Post by nicola12 on Oct 10, 2011 21:07:01 GMT
After lots and lots of reading, I have started slowly introducing my goos to this. So far they seem to be really enjoying it! At first they picked out the mix first before the herbs but today they went straight for the herbs Thank you so much this is all excellent advice and the pictures are very helpful.
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Oct 11, 2011 2:28:18 GMT
I was able to collect many plants today and hopefully will be starting a reserve for the winter months. I have posted photos and more details in the blog section. I came across many interesting plants and brought home the ones I knew were good for the degus. However others, I do not know. Ferns for example are very abundant, but I have heard nothing of their use or suitability as part of the degu diet. David, have you experience with these plants ? I am particularly interested in Osmunda regalis (royal fern). I also have access to different Lycopode species, but know not of their suitability...same goes for Maianthemum Canadense. I am so anxious to get a fresh start in spring ! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Update: I have been doing some reading on Ferns and according to the forum Le Petit Monde des Todons, ferns are unsafe for degus. I have just checked some german sources and Ferns are listed among unsuitable plants... I guess this puts a quick end to my questions
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Post by winic1 on Oct 11, 2011 6:10:29 GMT
don't know of specifics with ferns, other than in my former botanist days, some ferns are "harmless" and some are toxic.
Remember a professor shaking his head at a classification key which said to taste the rhizome for licorice flavor or not. If you'd made a mistake higher up, and gone the wrong way down the key, you could be biting into a poisonous fern!
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Post by fred on Oct 11, 2011 9:51:58 GMT
Some ferns are believed to very toxic or carcinogenic. There seem to be some uncertainties however. For example it seems that bracken (Pteridium aquilinum) is considered the most toxic fern growing in Germany, but young bracken is eaten as salad or cooked vegetable in come countries. As winic1 indicated, ferns can be quite tricky to identify correctly, so I don't think it's worth the risk. In particular when you have such a choice of plants with the all clear.
Maianthemum bifolium is on David's toxic plants list, so maybe better to stay clear of Maianthemum canadense too. I couldn't find anything about Licopodium species on the German sites.
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Post by fred on Oct 11, 2011 10:36:32 GMT
@ madhoose Root vegetables like parsnip, carrot and beetroot have a certain amount of sugar in them and therefore should be fed only sparingly. If they are just one ingredient in a natural mix that won't be a problem. The leaves of all are fine, also in larger amounts. @ nicola12 Glad to hear your goos getting a taste for the green stuff
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Oct 12, 2011 2:59:54 GMT
Thanks for the info Fred ! Will stay clear of all these plants.
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Post by winic1 on Oct 12, 2011 19:10:51 GMT
Something you can look for that you can hopefully find is Timothy Hay that has extras in it. Living World (Hagen) makes some that are called Timothy Toppings, and another company called Kaytee makes some different combinations called Timothy Hay Plus. Some have flowers, some dried veggies. They aren't what you would call a great variety of things, but they are certainly more than just Timothy Hay, and at the moment, thats about the best we have over here. Oxbow also makes some Timothy Hay mixes, but I haven't found them in store just yet. Got my bags of Kaytee Timothy Hay plus Marigolds and Hay plus carrots. Found one, yes ONE, dried flower in the first 5 inches of hay. Cannot see anything else but hay through the bag. The Hay plus carrots--I see a palmful of dried carrot bits plopped against the center front of the bag, and none mixed in among the hay, from what I can see through the bag. Not impressed. Now, I haven't gone all the way through the bags, but so far, it appears to be 99+% hay, and a token addition of the extras. Fortunately, it was buy one get one free on Petco's website, so the price was reasonable for hay-only, or I'd be very unhappy. I pulled out the dried marigold (Calendula), split it in half, and put it in the cage, and our goo-boys quickly grabbed it and started munching, so at least they will enjoy it if I can find a better source.
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Post by winic1 on Oct 12, 2011 19:17:27 GMT
Saw on an herbal website, which also has whole ingredients for potpourri, that they had birch cones (Alnus rubra). Would these be okay?
Tree leaves are rapidly turning and disappearing here, not going to be able to get out and get much before winter (home with sick child today, started raining and going to last until the weekend...). So looking for online items I can blend with the hay myself.
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Oct 12, 2011 20:41:01 GMT
@ Winic1
As you mention, the leaves are changing colours rapidly, but there is still time. If you can, try to collect some dandelion plants, plantain plants, meadow or field grasses, luzerne and clover. These usually last until the first snow in december.
We have little access to decent mixes of flowers/plants here, so collecting is very helpful. With a large enough supply, you could supplement the diet for a few months.
Sorry to hear about your experience with the Kaytee mix. We do not have this brand of food here, but I have seen and used similar products. The Living World offers better hay mixes and Versele-Laga supplement their food mixes with valuable ingredients.
Drying vegetables and herbs is also a good option for us.
I have found some individually packaged ingredients on Ebay, but the prices where ridiculous. Let us know if you find anything useful online !
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Post by winic1 on Oct 12, 2011 21:32:09 GMT
Oops, forgot to put this here as well as in the "internet sources" post. www.goodhopebotanicals.com/index.htmHaven't ordered anything yet, but it looks quite promising. The company is in California. In the "Potpourri Ingredients" and the "Spices and Herbs" sections, they have whole dried flowers and leaves of quite a few things available. Recognized about 8 offhand, have to start checking against some of the lists here. They sell them in 1 pound bags (or more). $25 minimum order, and shipping charges are standard UPS or Fedex ground charges. I figure a pound of dried petals or flowers has got to be quite a lot, versus hay or especially pellets. An order of 6 or 8 items should create enough mix, along with hay, to last quite a while.
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Oct 12, 2011 21:40:19 GMT
This looks very good ! The prices are reasonable as well and they do offer a large variety. This will be useful for our members living in the USA.
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Oct 13, 2011 1:09:16 GMT
Fred, thank you for posting a photo of your vegetable/herb mix. I have started drying some more vegetables for the mix I will be putting together this week. So far all the dandelions, plantains, luzerne, clovers, leaves and flowers are drying well and so are the kitchen herbs. It is remarkable how all these plants have shrunk over the past two days. The luzerne and clovers dry very quickly. The dandelions take more time...especially the latex-filled stems. I thought the bounty would last me three months or so, but now that it is drying, I think I will be heading out to collect some more this weekend. After seeing a photo of Fred's latest mix, I too wanted to try drying tomatoes. I decided to get Italian tomatoes, since they contain less moisture and contain less seeds than other varieties. The tomatoes have been sliced in thin slices and are currently drying under a heat lamp. The heat lamp is working very well and even now I can see the moisture escaping the tomatoes in the form of mist. I am hoping they will harden and dry off well. I also spotted what you call "coltsfoot". When I broke off a leaf, I noticed the stem was filled with a creamy substance. The leaves where big and round and formed large clusters. The plants grew closely together, exactly like the Coltsfoot. Instead of bringing some home, I decided to look for some photos of the plant, just to be sure. Here they are called Pas-d'âne and from what I have been reading on them, they grow in locations identical to where I spotted the plants. I noticed in many photos, they had tall flowers (similar to dandelions). But after reading up on this, I learned the flourishing period ended in July and that after this period, the plant concentrates its nutrients into growing large leaves. This confirms my guess about them being Coltsfoot. I have learned something even better Coltsfoot are vivaces (dont know the word in english)...plants that come back every year. This means that as long as the base and roots are left intact, the plants will grow back every spring ! Now I will have a yearly supply of Coltsfoot leaves and flowers ;D
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Post by winic1 on Oct 13, 2011 3:29:32 GMT
The word you're looking for is "perennial". Means it comes back year after year from the rootstock (or bulb or whatever it has underground).
The words for the other types of plants are "annual", which means it lives only one season/year, and must grow from seeds the next year.
And then there's "biennial", which is a plant that lives two years--grows from seed the first year, overwinters as the dormant roots, grows up from them the second year, and then will flower and make seeds before dying. The life cycle starts over the next year from the new seeds.
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Oct 13, 2011 3:36:01 GMT
The word you're looking for is "perennial". Means it comes back year after year from the rootstock (or bulb or whatever it has underground). That is exactly what I meant ! Thanks winic1, I will keep these words in mind
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