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Post by fred on Sept 7, 2011 6:51:26 GMT
Hello all, Since apology72 and maravilla recently showed us their 100% natural food mixes ( deguworld.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=food&action=display&thread=8775, now also containing mixes by davx), there has been increasing interest in the topic. There seem to be quite a few members of this forum who would like to increase the number of natural ingredients in the diet of their degus, and some may want to replace manufactured hard feeds altogether. The problem is that outside the German-speaking countries the degu community is lacking information about and experience in feeding with natural ingredients, as well as the knowledge where to resource them. To reduce this deficit, we (that is aya0aya, degualot, nightwishraven999 and I) have begun a project, with the advice and help of apology72 and maravilla, that aims to replace 50% of the hard feed we are giving our goos by our own mixes of natural ingredients. Everyone is invited to join us!! On this thread we want to ask and answer questions, discuss problems, and report on our progress. EDIT: For individual members' approaches to natural nutrition for their degus, see also the following blogs: NightwishRaven999's Degu Keeping Journal Malteser's degu blogt Kat's food reform and other Degu titbit's To start us off, I proudly present my first natural mix:  This was sooo much easier than I had expected. From my local Pet Shop I got Burgess Excel Mountain Meadow Herbs and Burgess Excel Country Garden Herbs. Each pack was £ 2 for 120 g, and the combined mix contains: chamomile chicory coltsfoot leaf cornflower dandelion hibiscus jerusalem artichoke marigold milk thistle mint parsley plantain rose petals sage sunflower petals It looks nice, smells nice, and my girls love it! ;D ;D |
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Post by Kins on Sept 7, 2011 8:24:59 GMT
Looks good enough to eat, heh! Good job. So am I right in thinking this is a 'complete' food for degus? And they would not need any other nuggets/degu specific feed? Or are there any other plants/leaves etc that you (or anyone else) would suggest adding to this mix? I currently feed mine on P@H nuggets but love the idea of feeding them a more natural diet. EDIT: Sorry just read this properly  :-[and see this would be 50% of the feed plus nuggets making up the other 50%! Are there any other specific natural ingredients that could make this a compete food? |
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Post by fred on Sept 7, 2011 8:33:05 GMT
Nutritional values of seeds The seeds which we can use in our seed mixes vary considerably in their energy content. Oilseeds which are high in fat and protein should make up a minor part of the seed mix and/or be given only on some days of the week. I have put together the nutritional values of some of the frequently used seeds. Most of this information is from davx' degu information site, but I have added a few which I have seen in some seed mixes. The values shown may not be 100% accurate but are intended as a guideline how energy-rich a particular seed is. Happy mixing! | cereal/grass seeds | % fat | % protein | | oat | 8,0 | 13,9 | | amaranth | 7.0 | 14.0 | | canary | 6,1 | 15,1 | | quinoa | 6.0 | 14.0 | | millet | 3,7 | 11,1 | | dari | 3,2 | 10,2 | | buckwheat | 2,4 | 11,5 | | barley | 2,0 | 10,9 | | wheat | 1,7 | 11,5 | | | | | | oilseeds | % fat | % protein | | sesame | 48.0 | 17.0 | | sunflower | 45,2 | 27,7 | | rape | 45.0 | 20.0 | | niger | 42,2 | 20,7 | | pumpkin | 40.0 | 33.0 | | linseed | 34,2 | 21,5 | | hemp | 32,1 | 19,5 | | cardy | 27,8 | 14,3 | | milk thistle | 26.7 | 23.0 |
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Post by fred on Sept 7, 2011 9:26:50 GMT
Kins It is definitely possible to increase this to 100% and have a 'complete' food for degus made up exclusively of natural ingredients. Like apology72 and maravilla, many members on the German deguforum.de feed only their own mixes and no “hard feed” products whatsoever. For this project we have the more modest aim of replacing about half of the hard feed with natural ingredients because it is more realistic in the short term. In the UK, it should be relatively easy to buy dried flowers/leaves/herbs to make up a complete mix. I am putting together a list of products that are available from two internet shops and may also be available from local pet shops. However, this may be much more difficult in North America (so far I had little luck searching for suitable products there). Members in other European countries may also find it more difficult and postage costs when ordering from a different country may become a factor. Most of those who feed exclusively natural ingredients get much of these from collecting or growing them. That can be interesting and enjoyable in itself and will reduce costs considerably. So one thought for us was to start off with the 50% target over autumn and winter, and increase this when fresh material becomes available next year.
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Post by fred on Sept 7, 2011 10:34:07 GMT
UK sources for dried flowers/leaves/herbs I have found three UK makers of pet food whose products are suitable as ingredients for our own mixes: Burns, Burgess, and Rosewood Naturals. Below I have listed products which already contain several different ingredients. There are also bags of individual dried plants available and some interesting hays. Two online shops sell most of these products: www.thehayexperts.co.uk/ and www.bunnybazaar.com/ There will be others, these are only meant as examples. Some of the mixes below contain ingredients which we would not necessarily include if we used individual ingredients. However, if our mixes contain 12 to 15 ingredients, each individual contributes only a small amount. @ apology and maravilla – I have checked all ingredients for suitability, but please have another look to confirm. Burns Natural Meadow Mix dandelion, chicory, plantain, mint, milfoil, chamomile, marigold, nettle, birch tree leaf, willow bark Burgess Excel Country Garden Herbs dandelion, plantain, chicory, mint, milk thistle, marigold, cornflower and jerusalem artichoke Burgess Excel Mountain Meadow Herbs dandelion, milk thistle, coltsfoot leaf, chamomile, parsley, sage, hibiscus, fennel seeds, rose and sunflower petals Rosewood Naturals Ginkgo Plus ginkgo leaves, green oat, aaron’s rod Rosewood Naturals Dandelion Delight dandelion, melissa (lemon balm) and plantain Rosewood Naturals Trio of Fruit Leaves raspberry leaves, strawberry leaves and blackberry leaves Rosewood Naturals Herbal Garden green oat, green wheat, parsley, melissa, peppermint, nettle,dandelion, camomile. Rosewood Naturals Jerusalem Artichoke nettle, jerusalem artichoke and rose petals Rosewood Naturals Nature’s Salad oat flakes, wheat flakes, marigold, parsley, red beet, alfalfa, dandelion, pea flakes, carrots, nettle, plantain, wheat, burst wheat, burst maize, edible leaves, cornflowers, rose petals, peppermint, maize flakes, melissa, red clover (note: contains flakes and burst cereal – suitability depends on how much they make up of the mix; I have ordered a bag to check out) |
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Post by Kat on Sept 7, 2011 12:43:28 GMT
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Post by fred on Sept 7, 2011 13:01:53 GMT
Welcome to the club  To me it looks as if that were good for two mixes on alternating days, but apology and maravilla will be able to give you a more expert opinion. |
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Post by Maravilla on Sept 7, 2011 13:19:19 GMT
@ Kins, as Fred already said, my degus only get a mix of lots of dried things plus seeds (all shown and named in the other thread). As I got all animals being adults from different sources I don't know what food they got before entering my home. But if they got nuggets and other things like them I am sure they don't even remember them  . One degu we got from an animal shelter and there we know for sure the nutrition was pellets. We changed food from one day to another (normally it's not recommended) and he accepted these new things immediately. @ Fred, the mixtures you mention looks good. I have the same opinion about the very last one. But as e.g. JR Farm Degu Spezial as well contains wheat and other corn it should be okay if mixed with another food without grain. Which plant is meant by Aaron's rod? The dictionary gives two different plants, one being very toxic, the other would be okay... so I hope it's the second option. How you feed is up to you. Apology has mixtures for different days of the week. I have only two main mixtures which are both available in the cage... Degus can chose what they want to eat. When you feed nuggets, you normally put a special amount of them per day in the cage. Dried things you can put at any amount. You will see when you have to refresh them. |
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Post by aya0aya on Sept 7, 2011 13:21:35 GMT
I thought to post this earlier, but I didn't had time.
I'm wondering if we should add prepared vitamin fluid in the drinking watter at time to time to avoid lack of them? Or is enough of vitamins in the natural mix itself? I know prepared food do have added vitamins, copper and maybe something else that degus may need in their food. Vitamin A can be in carrot, but there have to be fat included to absorb. Vitamin C can be damaged in the light or air....that's what I heard, so maybe we should consider this.
I'll try to be more active later, but I'm very busy at the moment.
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Post by fred on Sept 7, 2011 13:34:33 GMT
Which plant is meant by Aaron's rod? The dictionary gives two different plants, one being very toxic, the other would be okay... so I hope it's the second option. As I understand it, it's Verbascum thapsus (Kleinblütige Königskerze), but if it were Solidago canadensis (Kanadische Goldrute), it would also be OK (according to the degupedia wiki)? |
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Post by Maravilla on Sept 7, 2011 13:42:56 GMT
Ok, I am probably confused because there is another toxic plant (arum) which I took as false friend  . |
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Post by Ady on Sept 7, 2011 17:43:20 GMT
Thanks Fred for posting those seeds nutrition. I just figured my mix is way too fatty. Need to remix it now. How low in fat shall I make it? Well, degutopia recommend degu diet with 4% of fat. So I'm thinking making seeds mix with 8-10% of fat. I feed the seeds mixed 50/50 with dried veggies which is under 1% of fat, also they have dried herbs/leaves, hay (0% fat) and main feed is pellets with 4% of fat. So together it would make 4-5% fat a day. Does it sound right???
Or do you guys just mix the seeds by eye, going easy on the fat ones?
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Post by Maravilla on Sept 7, 2011 18:59:07 GMT
Frankly said, I mix it by eye... Davx once wrote about a 50:50 mix of oil and grass seeds. I suppose I have until now to many grass seeds in it (to high amount of millet). Sunflower and pumpkin I don't have in my mixture but give them as titbits. I've never thought about fat content. Seeds are the only origin of fat if you don't feed nuggets. I have seen what a low calorie nutrition can provoke (malnourished, far to slim and bony degus). So, this is something I don't want to go back.
By weighing your degus regularly you have a direct feedback of the effect of their diet.
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Post by davx on Sept 7, 2011 22:59:18 GMT
Forget this number please . What is the source of this number, where is it from? Does Degutopia mention any serious source? Honestly I doubt, that number is correct. Why? Because the natural diet in wild says me something completely else: Remember: the coquitos are staple food of the degus during the dry season. And when I remember the food, when coquitos are not available, then they eat besides grass seeds considerable amounts of other, fatty seeds, so that we can assume a mix 50% fatty seeds and 50% starch rich seeds (grains) is a more realistic approach. and another pitfall: Hay never has 0% fat. Hay is a natural mixture of diverse sorts of plants. That makes it difficult to find a mean value for hay in general, because it varies highly according to the composition and the origin of the plants. Perhaps it is below 1%, but there are of course fatty pasture plants, containing smaller quantities of fat. Dried grass meal contains about 3-4% fat and that is in principle ground hay (but good quality, often rich in clover, alfalfa etc.). By the way as a little background information. In German we distinguish between starch rich seeds so called "Mehlsaaten" (literally: "flour seeds") and fat rich seeds, "Ölsaaten" (literally: "oil seeds"). It depends on which nutrient category (fat or starch) is the main part of the seed. So called "Mehlsaaten" are grain (including rice and maize), but also pseudo-grain like amaranth, quinoa or buckwheat. And "Ölsaaten" are the big rest, e.g. nuts, sunflowerseeds, but also salad seeds or thistle seeds. |
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Sept 8, 2011 0:55:00 GMT
Fred, I am so glad you posted your mix for everyone to see !
It is absolutely thrilling you were able to find all these healthy ingredients to create a natural mix for your two girls.
The fact that you were able to get so many dried herbs and flowers is very encouraging for our members in the UK.
Also thanks to Fred and David from providing us with a table of fat/protein contents of some seeds and grains.
This will prove most useful !
Sometimes one cannot tell the if a grain is "oil seed" or "grass seed". I will be translating and printing out this list so I know which is which when shopping for degu products.
Although individual herbs and plants are readily available here, there is very little as far as pre-mixed herbs and flower packages.
I have been looking on the french-speaking community and this is a dilemna. In France and Belgium, degu owners have easy access to JR Farms products and other mixes of plants, flowers and seeds. The degu owners in Québec however, rely mostly on Versele-Laga and have no access to mixes.
I will be keeping both eyes open...but for now I must keep hunting for individual fresh and dried products to create my own mix.
Apology and Maravilla both have incredible diets for their degus.
Many of us would love to have a 100% natural diet, but for now 50% degu food - 50% natural feed (not including the hay) is a far more attainable goal and one that will still yield great results.
[glow=red,2,300]This is definitely a step foward ![/glow]
I am looking forward to seeing the mixes other members come up with ! I am still in the process of drying the various herbs and plants (just got some fresh Mint herbs yesterday). Once everything is dry and mixed I will be posting it on here.
With the information posted on here by Fred, I will be on the hunt for more seeds and grains this week ;D I have mostly been focusing on herbs but now realise that no natural diet is complete without grains and seeds.
As for the Degutopia quote....most english websites have been badly misinformed about degu dietary needs. 4% fat leaves absolutly no room for grains or seeds.
After reading so many sites saying that degus should only be fed tiny amounts of fresh vegetables and plants, it can be hard to break free of these chains. But the diets shown by Apology and Maravilla, along with this project and the information provided by Davx, gives us the confidence to leave these myths behind.
Using Google Translate and having some quick glances at the DeguForum.de also helps shed all fears of natural feeds ;D
I am sure I am not the only one to feel this way when I say; it is very refreshing to learn that all these herbs, plants, flowers and seeds are good for degus ! After reading several misguided sources, we can easily become brain-washed into thinking that EVERYTHING is bad for degus.
@ David
Your topic about the Coquitos also caught my attention.
I had never heard about this before and I find it very interesting to learn that this is staple food for degus during the dry season.
Some pellet foods already contain lots of fat, so it is logical to tone down on fat in other sources when degus consume the pellets daily. But in a more natural diet, where pellets do not consist of the main diet, seeds and oil grains are important for the degus to maintain proper weight.
This is how I understand it.
Thank you so much for clearing these things up for us.
I am looking forward to participating in this project and seeing it grow. As a community, we have come a long way as far as housing standards go. Now it is even more exciting to hear that many are about to take another step forward, this time in the matter of diet and feeding.
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Post by Maravilla on Sept 8, 2011 9:25:16 GMT
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Post by Maravilla on Sept 8, 2011 9:33:41 GMT
aya0aya, I don't add vitamins or minerals to the food or water as I consider the amount contained in herbs and seeds high enough. Maybe David can say some more words about this, but as far as I know none of the people feeding only natural products add any extras to the food. I think a too high amount of vitamins can even have negative effects on the degu's health.
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Post by Kat on Sept 8, 2011 12:43:50 GMT
How do you all serve these foods? Do you have a large or small bowl? Is it added to the 50% pellet feed? Do you mix dried and grains?
Sorry for all the questions
Kat
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Post by fred on Sept 8, 2011 14:15:29 GMT
@ Kat - From my limited experience I would suggest to have natural food and pellets in different bowls, at least for the beginning, so that you can better monitor what they are eating. I give dried and grains in one bowl (13 cm), but offer them increasingly for foraging. I have a hanging basket full of bedding hay (yes, the ladies have different hay for bedding and food ) and hide some of the natural food in there. |
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Post by Kat on Sept 8, 2011 15:50:41 GMT
Thanks you. Re: hay, my boys have meadow hay for bedding and timothy for the racks.
Are nettle ROOTS safe? I can't find any info on these.
Kat
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:-[and see this would be 50% of the feed plus nuggets making up the other 50%! Are there any other specific natural ingredients that could make this a compete food?
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