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Post by Ady on Jun 3, 2011 23:40:40 GMT
Hey guys, I had my male neutered 10 days ago. It went fine and he seems to healed ok. I just wonder when can I put him back with the girl? My vet said 4 weeks, degutopia says not before 2 weeks and pawtalks says 6. I'm confused! What u think?
He is by himself now in top floor of the cage and the girl and their 12days old babies are under him in 1st and 2nd floor. thanx for advice
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Post by kovu07 on Jun 3, 2011 23:48:34 GMT
I would leave it for 4 weeks, since Degutopia is likely to be correct, but the longer you leave it the the saferr you will be. Also if you leave it for 4 weeks, introductions could take another 1 - 2 weeks so that will mean he's out for 5 - 6 weeks
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Post by fred on Jun 4, 2011 9:24:27 GMT
I am a bit confused here. I thought the general advice was that dads could be with their family once mum is out of her post partum oestrus until the pups are six weeks old. If I understand it correctly dad was neutered 2 days after birth. So why keep them separated in particular since dad's presence is considered beneficial for the pups' development?
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Post by kovu07 on Jun 4, 2011 9:52:11 GMT
I think it's because dad needs time to recover, since neutering is a major operation for a small animal, and also to make sure the sperm has all dried up (or so I was led to believe)
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Post by fred on Jun 4, 2011 10:27:36 GMT
I don't know about the recovery period but I think the healing process is supposed to be fairly quick and I have seen the suggestion that they are usually fully recovered within two weeks.
My question is whether in this case it matters at all whether he has viable sperm up to two, four, or at the very most six weeks post op? If mum doesn't have another oestrus over the six week period and the female pups don't become fertile, what can happen? Just curious.
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Post by kovu07 on Jun 4, 2011 10:33:40 GMT
Hmm i'm not sure, i see where you're coming from. Perhaps it's just a safety precaution?
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Post by Ady on Jun 4, 2011 10:54:16 GMT
As Fred said the general advice is to put dad back with mum once she is out of her post partum oestrus until babies are 6 weeks and she shoudnt get pregnant , regardless if the male is neutered or not. That would mean i could put him back with her once he is healed (basically now as he's been post-op check yesterday by vet and he's all good). but i just find that 'theory' a bit risky. so i wanna wait till all the sperm is gone and not sure if its 4 or 6 weeks.
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Post by fred on Jun 4, 2011 11:39:41 GMT
The following is NOT a recommendation, just my rambling thoughts, and please those with lots of experience let me know if I am wrong.
The problem with how long there may be viable sperm is obviously the wide range of suggestions from different sources. Unfortunately it happens so often on the web that a number appears somewhere and is then taken over by other sites. So I am wondering what the evidence for the six weeks is? Definitely the number of viable sperm will drop exponentially with time.
On the other hand, the statement that it is safe to leave dad and mum together for six weeks (except for the post partum oestrus) seems to be quite established. I would expect that if there was any anecdotal evidence that females have become pregnant, there would be lots of warnings “separate after x weeks.
As a scientist I am used dealing with probabilities; if they are very low for either dad or mum being fertile between say weeks 4 to 6, it would be exceedingly small for it to happen for both. Personally I would find the residual “risk” acceptable but that's just me with all of my five weeks worth of hands-on degu experience.
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Post by philbailey1806 on Jun 4, 2011 11:57:42 GMT
I definately agree with fred, I'd say dads fine to go straight back in as soon as the wound has healed because his viable sperm will have gone by the time mother or female babies are in oestrus. Also, the babies benefit a lot having dad around aswell as mum, and it also stops dad getting lonely, so it's best all round in my opinion.
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Post by fred on Jun 4, 2011 12:04:13 GMT
Exactly my thoughts Phil. If the effects were neutral I would wait, but there are the beneficial effects on pups and dad which you described.
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Post by philbailey1806 on Jun 4, 2011 12:13:59 GMT
I've literally just put dad back in with mum two days ago when she came out of post partum oestrus and I can't tell you how much happier everyone is! Mum gets a break from babies, dad gets cuddles, and babies feel secure enough to start wandering around the cage, it's made a massive difference to the whole family, so if the wounds healed and he's been kept in a cage where he can still see and smell mum and pups so he doesn't need introducing, I'd advise popping him back in asap.
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Post by fred on Jun 4, 2011 14:17:54 GMT
ady, I couldn't let it rest and have been searching around. I have found a scientific paper, which in general I would trust more than the average web site, that states that females which do not become pregnant during the post partum oestrus will not become pregnant until the pups are weaned. So there seems to be a good biological reason behind the “six weeks rule”. I didn't find any details but I would assume the most likely explanation is that lactation suppresses the oestrus. If you want to have that wonderful whole family experience which Phil described, I think you can safely do so .
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Post by Ady on Jun 4, 2011 15:20:30 GMT
Thank you Fred for searching. I wasnt really convinced as there was post (wasn't it Smux? if not, sorry) their degu got pregnant again like this. I just didn't want to run any risk her getting pregnant. First litter wasnt planned and mum and dad are actually sister&brother so shouldnt breed. I'll put him back tmrw morning. He had loads of supervised time with her and their 5 little ones so should be fine. will keep eye on them and his wounds. BTW his wound was glued instead of stitched. Is that common with this procedure or small animals in general? just wondering
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Post by philbailey1806 on Jun 4, 2011 16:09:23 GMT
Yes I've seen the same post, which put me off at first, but (correct me if I'm wrong) I think Smux put them back together after 24 hours, whereas degutopia reccomends 4-5 days. I went for 5 days just in case, but the degutopia team are excellant, they know more about degus than most vets and even breed them themselves, so I definately, definately trust the information on there, definately the best guide on the internet I've found, and I did a LOT of research when mine got pregnant.
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Post by kovu07 on Jun 4, 2011 16:14:54 GMT
I think glue is more common as it is less prone to infection and scaring, and also there is no need to go back and have the stitches removed.
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Post by philbailey1806 on Jun 4, 2011 16:24:20 GMT
Oh yeah, forgot to reply about that bit, don't really know because I've never had a degu need an op. Thanks Kovu! Teamwork! lol
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Post by kovu07 on Jun 4, 2011 16:42:20 GMT
Indeed
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Post by fred on Jun 4, 2011 23:29:33 GMT
smux you are obviously confusing things here. The information I have cited says clearly “... which do not become pregnant during the post partum oestrus ...” Your Theresa was clearly in her post partum oestrus, so your babies do NOT contradict the information given. ady's female has given birth 12 days ago so will definitely be out of her post partum oestrus and will not be able to become pregnant before her pups are weaned, by which time the neutered dad will no longer have any viable sperm.
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Post by fred on Jun 5, 2011 0:36:56 GMT
smux - according to your posts Gizmo had his way with Theresa 36 hours after you saw the first baby. That's clearly during the post partum oestrus. The oestrus cycle in degus is pretty well characterised and degutopia's suggestion of four days separation after birth seems reasonable. I have no idea where the information that females are highly receptive for a month after birth comes from but it is simply not correct. Since the oestrus cycle is 21 days it doesn't make any sense. There seem to be some misconceptions about female degu oestrus cycle and receptiveness on the forum.
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Post by Ady on Jun 5, 2011 1:07:01 GMT
Well, he is still separated. I just came home and noticed his penis is kind of hanging out a bit. The whole thing seems slightly prolapsed. Will check it in morning and try to post some picture and more info.
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